User talk:GreekStar12

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1: November 2008–February 2009 2: March 2009–May 2009 3: June 2009–August 2009 4: August 2009–September 2009

Whatever I said to that Paparizou "manager" ip worked because he apologized to me and said it was all a misunderstanding. Btw, I got a kick out of reading your response to him! Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:RouvasIrthesStudioVideo.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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I have tagged File:RouvasIrthesRoadVideo.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. feydey (talk) 14:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This was a promo only release and is not official discography. I think we should take it down by redirecting it, but extrapulate the relevant info like about the singles for use on other pages. Imperatore (talk) 05:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey I skimmed through your responses quickly as I'm finally going to bed tonight lol. Anyways, Music Bazaar is a very shady, almost bootleg like site. If it's not black market then it's surely grey market. They seem to have all kinds of unnoficial things there, and they claim rights to Greek music digital sales via a Russian licencing agreement. http://www.music-bazaar.com/main.php?block=misc&page=4. They seem like a borderline scam who pocket the money, and if it's true, split the illegal profits with the aforementioned Russian organization or whatever. This Russian licence makes absolutely no sense, nor does this organization appear to have a relation with Greek AEPI (Ελληνική Εταιρεία Προστασίας της Πνευματικής Ιδιοκτησίας). I'll post more details here tomorrow, although be very vigilent about making arguments about music bazaar, since others have questioned its legality. Also notice the last paragraph of their legal statement!! Imperatore (talk) 07:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I did a quick google search of this Russian organization and all the results are overwhelmingly about the legal interpretation of their practices. Bottom line SCAM and constitutes piracy (grey market at best). Here's one of the articles I briefly skimmed through which does a good job at deciphering their deceptive business practices. Notice that music bazaar quotes the same disclaimer about laws governing different countries. http://www.slate.com/id/2115868/

And finally, in response to the Rouvas and other "digital" like releases, they are obviously just fan compilations which music bazaar, being the scam site that they are, have picked up on. Fail!!

It appears as if Greece's official, industry body, fully licenced by IFPI and AEPI to conduct online administration of the labels' catalogues is MPGREEK, which in turn run their own site mpgreek.com and distribute to other official channels such as iTunes. The reason why I believe MPGREEK is the sales agent (licenced by labels via ifpi and aepi) is coz Sony's store is through them, 123play.gr (ant1 group's store) says powered by mpgreek, etc... although this is just my speculation at the moment. Regardless though, music bazaar is bullshit embroiled in the russian distribution scam. Imperatore (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the back cover [1], it says "Promo Sampler - Not For Sale". I thought it was a nice little article I though :) Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 11:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well then, now that we now, I guess it can be merged into the promo section of Vrisko To Logo Na Zo or something. Interesting though because I read a fan discussion with one saying that it was bought physically, which must mean the physical retailer was selling it illegally as well.:0GreekStar12 (talk) 21:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If people claim to have bought it legitimately, then maybe some physical copy batches might've (inadvertently) made there way to CD retail suppliers. Or it could've been that someone pirated the CD really well and supplied it to less formal retail channels (for CDs) like at periptera. Or if there never was a retail presence of it, the covers might've simply leaked from radio station or other promotional personnel who handled it. Imperatore (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The EPs seem a little random at the moment. For example, how can we consider Monadikes Erminies his "third EP", when in fact, newspaper releases have been a common practice for more than decade??? A hot commodity like Rouvas has likely seen a number of back catalogue newspaper releases, especially from his Universal catalogue, as it's an easy way for his former company to cash in on his continued fame. I know I have seen a number of Rouvas newspaper compilations over the years, many of them mini EP style. Moreover, we should limit ourselves to official- retail- discography. Imperatore (talk) 22:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think we may have already talked about this and we came to the conclusion that it was not an EP (especially because of its length) and we agreed that we would make some change to it but I haven't gotten around to it yet because there were some other album-oriented things that I wanted to do for Rouvas and thus I just decided to leave it alone for the time being since its not really one of the first articles you would read about him. Anyway, I have also seen many promo/EP/album releases in newspapers, but I know that the first two EPs are legitimate, especially the Dance Mixes which I bought and had a remix that was promoted at that time. I don't know what to do with Monadikes Erminies for the time being, but I think that some of these newspaper/limited edition articles could be made/kept if they were done in the right perspective. What I mean, for example, is that while there are some random releases, I Hrisi Diskothiki (Espresso) and Monadikes Erminies (Eleftheros Typos) ie. are a long-running album series that feature many artists. Unfortunately, for various reasons not linked to notability, there are no articles for these newspapers, although in theory there should be. In that case, the album series should be mentioned as it is something that is unique to their press and if there were individual album pages they should moreso be considered as the press material's project rather than an artist's official release, no what I mean? Well, the album series themselves are in one way notable because they have become established and have permission from the labels and not just the older songs. ie Monadikes Erminies was actually licensed by EMI. We can do something to it to change it from EP, but...? GreekStar12 (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, of course they are fully legit and, due to their very nature (being in a newspaper), they garner press attention/promotion lol. I definitely see that we need to find a way to address these as a seperate component to their official discography, somehow linking it to their press as you mentioned. Btw, I keep on forgetting to ask you- do you have MSN messenger? Imperatore (talk) 00:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No I don't actually, sorry :P Grk1011 and Greekboy kept bugging me about it and they eventually thought that I was just ignoring them but I wasn't, I just don't use it, lol. GreekStar12 (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh alright then there was just something i wanted to share with you :P. Would you be interested on another IM platform or possibly email or whatever? Imperatore (talk) 00:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed up the labeling on Karvelas' album pages you made to accurately reflect release company, labels (imprints), as well as month of release and certification data i obtained from the "elliniki diskografia" database I have. Imperatore (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found it a little weird too that the database indicates gold and platinum numbers for levels not the standard ones we now, as indicated in on the Greek Albums Chart page. I'll have to look into it further and let you know. As for the labeling, its actually not that hard if you have a timeline of the music industry. Sony Music was born in 1991, before it was CBS until it was sold to Sony in 1989 (changed name on jan1, 1991). Also, outside of the US and Canada, CBS did not have the Columbia label. It was an EMI label until 1990 when CBS acquired it from EMI for outside US and Canada, and beginning on Jan1, 1991 (sony music birth) columbia was used all over the world by sony. Hence outside US and Canada, like in Europe/Greece, until 1990 Columbia was under EMI. Indeed Greek EMI which was known as EMIAL until 1991 as well (until it merged with Minos in 1991 to for Minos-EMI) used COlumbia label until it was passed to Sony globally that year in 1991. Hence it was impossible for Karvelas to be Columbia Greece pre-1991 since we know they weren't on EMI Greece (EMIAL). In fact, Vissi and Karvelas left Columbia EMI after they got sued by that company for forming CarVi against Vissi's contract in early 80s lol- definitely they both left for CBS! Imperatore (talk) 22:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for a possible explanation why your source indicates all "columbia", it's probably because the source is a compilation of all the CDs put out, which were probably issued on CD for the first time in the 90s, hence the CBS repertoire would be reissued on sony music/columbia in the 90s... Imperatore (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Made some obvious updates to the Duress page, clarifying the type of movie and its screenings and distribution. One thing I think is BS is about sources like Esctoday saying Rouvas was in Cannes where it was screened. I looked at the Cannes repertoire for 2009 (a complete pdf file) and it was nowhere to be found. Do we know for sure Sakis was in Cannes, and if so, what is for the screening of Duress specifically?? Since Cannes is the world's major film destination, it could be that it was not part of the mainstream Cannes Film Festival, but just screened there with no relation to the festival (like at a trade show - since it's a general industry hub).

Thanks for uploading File:PloutarhosMikresFotografies.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Modern Laïka redirects to Laïka which is described as modern Greek music. I feel like our use of the two genres is a little foggy. My impression is that Modern Laïka is more upbeat than regular, but I don't know where the line is drawn. Are both terms actually used in everyday life or is Modern Laïka sort of made up because of common sense? I feel like the article could use a little expansion to be up to par with other genre articles if you know anything about it. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:05, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is good that you mention this b/c I think that there needs to be certain clarifications on this. Personally, I have always had a problem with the genres for Greek singers here on wiki b/c I did not think that they were representative since pretty much all of the singers from the 80s to present were categorized under modern laika, pop, dance. First off, the reason why it redirects as you probably know has nothing to do with definition or notability, but just do to the fact that the articles do not exist like many Greek articles do not exist. Both terms are used and are their own seperate genres – comparatively think of Rhythm and blues and contemporary R&B. It's slightly different b/c in this case both are shortened to R&B, although a lot of the time in Greece it is just shortened to laiko as well. The official name of the modern stuff is synghrono laiko, so it really should be called contemporary laika. Anyway, I think we should go through all of the Greek music genres:

• Rebetiko - Oldest genre of modern Greek music, prominent pre-WWI but made a revival in the 60s. Characterized by full string orchestration, especially high tones (baglama). Best example: Sotiria Bellou, Vasilis Tsitsanis, Giorgos Zambetas
• Dimotiko - A classical genre associated with the church, heavy in sound, more than often chanted. Technically, it would be the Greek equivalent of gospel music. It is not really made for mainstream distribution.
• Paradosiako - Basically translates to Greek folk music; it is similar to laiko in a way but is more centered towards traditional dance music rather than mainstream listening, and is often region-centric. The instrumentation often includes things other than the typical Greek strings, such as clarinet.
  • Nisiotiko - A subgenre of paradosiako which originates from Greek islands, most prominently used as dance music, but also used in mainstream music. Best example: Giannis Parios "Ela Na Pame S'ena Meros".
• Entechno - This is really more a style than a genre. These songs may be of varying genres, but are characterized as being "art songs", meaning that they rely more on quality of the song rather than instant radio hits, with these songs also often possessing less trivial lyrics than other genres. However, many of them are just love songs that are characterized as ballads or being of a slower tempo. They are lullaby-esque, and vocally they are performed piano (softly) at a constant pace that does not usually range in notes or volume. Best example: Haris Alexiou (later work and ballads), Eleftheria Arvanitaki (closer towards the laiko angle), Michalis Hatzigiannis (closer towards the pop angle), and Filippos Pliatsikas (closer towards the rock/alternative angle)
• Laiko - Basically the popular Greek music of the 20th century and beyond; technically equivalent to pop music. It is in a way similar to the previous genres, however is more up-to-date and more universal rather than region-centric. It is characterized by its heaviness, fullness in volume of voice without much change in dynamics (volume), and string orchestration, mostly focusing on the low tones (bouzouki). It can easily be upbeat and is often used as dance music, while the lyrics almost always center around relationships, or might be tinged with sadness. Best examples: Angela Dimitriou, Paschalis Terzis
  • Elafro laiko - Soft laiko in translation, it is true laiko lacking of Western elements, however it is characterized by a softer sound, often provided by the vocals of the artists. Best example: Giannis Parios, Giannis Ploutarhos
  • Zeimbekiko - A subgenre of laiko, it is characterized by its heavy sound and powerful, deep vocals that often stay at the same volume such as in laiko, however the genre is usually reserved for men and usually older artists. It is the music that the iconic Greek "freestyle" (drunk) dancing is done to. Best example: Dimitris Mitropanos, Stelios Kazantzidis, but sometimes also younger artists such as Notis Sfakianakis and Antonis Remos.
  • Contemporary laiko - Also called pop-laiko, it is pretty much the main music genre of artists from the 1980s to present. There are many similarities between this and laiko vocally and musically, although the main difference is that it is generally lighter and the lyrics can often be a little more trivial. The songs also usually have some minor Western elements that distinguish them from their authentic counterparts. Best examples: Peggy Zina, Marianda Pieridi, Elena Paparizou, (also pop-folk), Despina Vandi (work post-Profities, also laiko, pop-folk), Anna Vissi (work since late 1990s, also laiko, pop-folk)
    • Pop-folk - (see Pop-folk) Fairly similar to contemporary laiko, with the same performers, it is moreso valued for its danceability rather than quality and is seperated from contemp. laiko merely by the lack specifically of bouzouki, etc., such as Chrispa's "A Chance to Love". Thus this type of music is more Balkan-oriented than unique to Greece. These are your typical "Dum Tek Tek"-style songs and are often criticized for the cheap production style, very trivial lyrics, mostly focusing on relationships, and also for the lack of the performer to show any significant vocal capabilities, although often the performers themselves are not considered to be the most vocally inclined. Although it is a Balkan trend, in some cases it is more cultural, such as the Turkish artist Tarkan.
  • Skiladiko - This is more of a style rather than a genre and most of these fall under the contemporary laiko/pop-laiko genre. Characterized by its low quality of production with the singers often performing at "skiladiko" venues that are defined as being kind of cheap dance clubs with the plate and flower throwing. The vocalists have also often been pinned as having lower quality vocals and singing about very trivial subjects. Best example: Lefteris Pantazis.

Classifications Well, here are my classifications on a few artists that you were probably thinking about. Many artists have been proclaimed pop singers in Greece by the media or whatever, but this is mostly untrue and pop music is often a backing genre. Just a few searches on some album reviews and there is a lot of available information.

• Anna Vissi - Laiko and contemporary laiko are a definite; pop-folk, and pop/dance are also appropriate. The thing is that many of these contemporary laiko singers often try to follow trends and try to give off pop images. Many of them also often release the pop songs from their albums as singles but a good majority of the album is laiko. Vissi may be often cited as a pop star, and while it is true that she (unlike many of the other artists) is notable in pop and has had numerous songs and success, she is mainly rooted in contemp. laiko.
• Despina Vandi - All of her first three albums can safely be labeled as laiko and nothing else. She began doing some more Western sounds in Profities, with "A Pa Pa" falling under contemporary laiko. However, songs like "Sta Dosa Ola" and "Lathos Anthropos" and many others since are also laiko. Although she has experimented with some pop tunes, it is not really all that notable enough for her as the majority of her work is laiko.
• Antonis Remos - Mostly laiko and zeimbekiko, some contemporary laiko, very few songs are pop.
• Antique - 90% of their work was contemporary laiko, despite the infusion of house/disco music. The songs "Me Logia Ellinika" and "Kainouria Agapi" are definitely laiko. Very few songs of theirs are pop.
• Notis Sfakianakis - Mostly laiko and zeimbekiko, some contemporary laiko.
• Michalis Hatzigiannis - Mostly entechno/traditional pop, some contemporary laiko and very few pop rock. However, his music has included many more bouncy pop songs since Akatallili Skini (see 7 album reviews).
• Peggy Zina - Mostly contemporary laiko although some laiko. Pop is a backburner genre, and she is definitely more laiko than most of the other female singers her age.
• Elli Kokkinou - Mostly contemporary laiko, some laiko and pop folk. Hardly any pop.
• Katy Garbi - Laiko and contemporary laiko or pop-folk, very few pop.
• Elena Paparizou - Mostly contemporary laiko/pop-folk (incl. "My Number One"), otherwise dance. Even some of her more adventurous work, such as "I Kardia Sou Petra", for example, still contains contemporary laiko elements.
• Giorgos Mazonakis - Mostly laiko and some contemporary laiko, along with some random genres at times ("Mila", "To Gucci Forema")
• Christos Dantis - Mostly contemporary laiko, although sometimes he follows a more rock pattern.
• Natassa Theodoridou - Mostly laiko. Went through a slightly more pop phase during one album.
• Chrispa - Mostly laiko, some pop-folk, pop is not that notable.

The truth is that most of the Greek artists cannot be considered pop artists; the only high-profile artist that can truly be identified as a full-time pop singer is Sakis Rouvas. However, I would definitely consider some younger artists such as Tamta to be pop singers, b/c as I know of, she really has not sung anything else. There are also a number of alternative bands and groups that are not as successful or notable that I would really rather not get into right now since most of their articles don't exist anyway. GreekStar12 (talk) 23:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for the explanation, it is VERY helpful. I think I'll copy it on to a subpage of mine for future reference. I did read it right away, but I wasn't able to thank you since I've been so busy with school and other stuff that I haven't been able to do more than simple reverts for the past week. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I also read this shortly after you posted and I wanna commend you on a great job! I'm not too sure though about some of the descriptions you gave. For example, "elafrolaiko"- isn't it a more watered down version of laiko with western elements? And I would've never thought of Ploutahos or Parios as examples. Secondly I never thought of zeibekiko as a genre, but more as of a style of type of song, within laiko. Furthermore, a longstanding issue on wiki I've wanted to bring up is this strange distinction between laiko and laika (singular - plural) describing them as two different genres. Any thoughts? Imperatore (talk) 18:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Something we should remember now is that Greeks have a very loose understanding and classification of genres. ex: I remember seeing Dima Bilan on TV in 2008 and he told them that his music was mostly R&B and they asked him if he was a rapper. They just don't distinguish, unlike in the Western world. If you see artist pages here, they will include a few main genres, but then if you visit their song/album pages, the genres are very specific and abundant. It really just depends how some classify elafrolaiko. Some might use it to describe the laiko w/ western elements, but that's just contemporary laiko, to be correct, and this is the correct term that is also recognized by awards shows (MAD, Arions). What I meant by elafro laiko is that it is much "balladier", comparative to soft rock. It has the laiko instrumenation but is not as "ding dong pluck pluck" as laiko (compare Ploutarhos to Terzis). Anyway this is very specific and a destinction that I was trying to make, and it while it is used sometimes, it really hasn't caught on as a description as much as the other ones, so we'll probably never use it. I am comfortable calling Ploutarhos laika, but I get a little confused with Parios, b/c from what I have heard, he never really got into the rebetiko revival thing like Dalaras and Alexiou, he's not necessarily "entehno" solely, but he's not heavy enough to be laiko. Moving on, entehno is really just a style and can encompass many different genres (see above) but in Greece it is treated as a genre and is its own category at awards shows. Zeimbekiko however, is not really a style, it is a subgenre like hard rock is to rock. Generally, only generalized genres are supposed to go on artist pages and the specific ones on album/song pages ie hip hop instead of west coast hip hop and gangsta rap, except in a case if the artist is exclusively ie pop rock and does nothing else. This prevents the genres section from becoming huge. However, I think some of these rules are very American artist-oriented and for Greek artists, it would be appropriate to put all three laiko, contemporary laiko, and zeimbekiko if they fit under these genres. I think this should be done b/c for international artists we are working with all of the genres of the world, while for Greek artists these are the genres we are working with and in order to give a full impression of their music, it is necessary since most do not have their own song pages. As far as the singular/plural issue they shouldn't be presented as diff genres, although I noticed that the tendency is to write laiko with the accents for the authentic stuff and laika for the modern. I've written it laika myself on many occasions, but I think it is mostly informal language, referring to "the popular stuff" and is how it would be said in speech (ie: Μου αρέσουν τα λαικά τραγούδια). It may be appropriate to change the existing ones to laiko b/c it is singular and is credited this way in awards shows and also in stores like Musical.gr GreekStar12 (talk) 00:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have now merged the laika article into the laiko article. I pretty much had the same suspicion all this time- that it was nothing more than speech convention. Also we have a bit of dilemma with new Hrispa "shocker" album Mehri Edo. If you haven't heard the album, I suggest you take a quick listen off youtube, since she collaborated with Korkolis and Roussi, and the sound is definitely more entehno, inline with other works from Korkolis, albeit with a more pop-like edge if I may say so... So far I have put entehno as the genre, but I feel that it could use some subgenres and/or styles, since as you mentioned, entehno is not really a genre per say, but as I see it it's more as a category/grouping of songs from their laiko counterparts based on other non-genre rationales (like sociological, etc..) Imperatore (talk) 16:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 15:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for not specifying the full name and catching you off guard, but everyone confuses those two, especially in translit. writing where there is no accent lol. I do not believe this is a big shift for Hrispa, at least from a purely musical sense (perceptions aside), since her previous album with Pegasos had some similar sounding songs, like the album's title song "Kathreftis". But of course we did not end up labeling that album entehno, since the perception dilemma on the classification of the genre is analogous to Rouvas' "S'eho erotefti". Also I believe that a large part of Protopsalti's work with Korkolis had a more poetic slant to the lyrics, whereas Hrispa's lyrics employ everyday "modern" language. What's your final verdict on the genres though- do we just leave it at "entehno"? Also, for my own interest, do you mind identifying which song(s) you felt are more laiko inspired?

As for the new globalized music scenes emerging in Greece, I wouldn't mind at all to classify them under non-Greek "global" genres, as well as making separate "hip hop" subcategories under Greek music categories. Whereas the majority of pop songs are by artists routed in laika (other than Rouvas, Tamta, as you mentioned), these new emerging scenes are instead prompted by the globalization/transnationalization of music, therefore they lack a linear progression from genres of "Greekness". I know this may begin to sounds like a greater debate, but the fact is it's no surprise that cultural expressions like music witness unprecedented transformations in the 21st century by greater phenomenons of interconnectedness, much like we hear in Greek music.

Notable exceptions are when the hip hop artists, in their savvy attempts to make extra $$$, decide to tap into the conventional mainstream Greek music scene by arranging duets with laiko artists and by infiltrating the bouzoukia and the megales pistes of Athens. For those duets, they are nothing more than fusions, and we can say: hip hop & laiko, etc.. Imperatore (talk) 18:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's some captivating photos I wanted to share :P http://www.flickr.com/photos/nikant/tags/minosemi/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergio_s/sets/72157614209045349/ .

Oh thanks! Those are really nice! GreekStar12 (talk) 20:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

HI!! THANKS FOR EDITING A PAGE THAT I CREATED. NICE TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE A MUSIC LOVER LIKE ME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raj.delta (talk • contribs) 17:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's about time for you to make an instant messaging account. me, imperatore, and greekboy all have AOL Instant Messenger so it would be a lot easier to discuss changes and updates without going back and forth on talk pages. It's free and it's not like you have to give any personal information to have an account. If you decide not to make one, at least turn on the email option in preferences so we can contact you that way. It comes as an email from wiki, so we won't know your real email address too if that was a privacy concern of yours. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:PaparizouAnditheseisvideo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Thanks for uploading File:MJInvincibleGreen.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:PaparizouStinKardiaMouMonoThlipsivideo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:MJInvincibleBlue.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:MJInvincibleRed.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:MJInvincibleOrange.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:ProtereotitaEuroEdit2Disc.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:PaparizouKatseKalavideo.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Aspects (talk) 17:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar.

The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter

Project Talk Page The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter Issue XIV - September and October 2009 Project News This is the first edition of the WikiProject Eurovision newsletter in a bimonthly format. Following a discussion on the project talk page this may now become the regular format for the newsletter during the months that the project is less active. Eurovision articles are being repeatedly targeted by sock puppets of banned user Xtinadbest (talk · contribs), who is not allowed to edit Wikipedia. The most effective way of tackling this disruption is to have all regular Eurovision article editors looking out for sock puppets. Editors should report any suspected sock puppets sighted to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations, more history can be found at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Xtinadbest/Archive. A proposal was made to change Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) to discourage the use of numeric dates, primarily YYYY-MM-DD (e.g. 2009-08-12 for 12 August 2009), in footnotes as at present it is only discouraged in the main article body. The proposal now seems unlikely to pass due to large levels of opposition, though it could have had a large impact on this project as the date format YYYY-MM-DD is frequently used in Eurovision for reference publication and access dates. Further discussion can be found on the project talk page. Eurovision News 31 countries have confirmed their participation in the 2010 Contest. ESCToday has suggested that the Eurovision Song Contest may be entering a crisis due to the possibility of a large drop in the number of participants next year with the ongoing international recession hitting the budgets of many broadcasters in Europe. Luxembourg and Monaco have both ruled out a return to the Eurovision Song Contest for 2010. A decision by San Marino on if to return or not has not yet been made. Hungary declared it is pulling out of the Eurovision Song Contest due to the financial difficulties of the national broadcaster Magyar Televízió (MTV). National selection details for the 2010 Contest are now available for sixteen countries. Despite the contest being over six months away, Bulgaria has already announced that the artist that will represent the country in 2010 will be Miroslav Kostadinov (who is frequently referred to as Miro). It has been announced that the voting system used for the Eurovision Song Contest semi-finals will change in 2010. The previous system was introduced in 2008 along with the first use of two semi-finals; it involved nine out of ten final places per semi-final being determined exclusively by televote, with the tenth place being determined by juries. This will be replaced by a more balanced 50% jury voting, 50% televoting system. The 2009 Junior Eurovision Song Contest is scheduled to occur next month on 21 November. 13 countries are participating in the contest, while three (Bulgaria, Greece, and Lithuania) are withdrawing. Do you have news for the next issue? Submit it here! Page Milestones Blaxy Girls was nominated for deletion and kept. Javine Hylton was also nominated for GA status but was quickly failed due to a large number of concerns. The nominator, Judo112 (talk · contribs), was later found to be a sock puppet of a previously blocked user. Norway in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 was nominated for GA status and was placed on hold for almost a month. The GA nomination has now failed due to some remaining issues. From the Members Welcome to the fourteenth edition of the WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter! There have been quite a few updates to the 2010 Contest article since 1 September. Nine countries (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Macedonia, Malta, Poland, Serbia, and Slovenia) have confirmed their participation, and the article in general has seen many changes. Sadly, whilst some editors have been working hard to provide reliable sources, others have been less thorough and the article has had to be semi-protected again to prevent further disruption. This is a shame, as ideally anyone should be able to edit; however, the talk page is always available to bring new information to light. The participating countries' section has also been updated to allow the inclusion of information about the language, artist and song (with an English translation as appropriate), although to date this is very much a work in progress. As news comes in, we look forward to enriching this section in the coming months—backed-up of course with sources! No new country-specific articles have been written these past two months. If you want to add more detailed information about a country's participation in the 2010 Contest, this is the ideal way to do it, and they are very much appreciated by our readers. Happy editing, Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (Talk) Member News The project currently has 77 members, with a loss of one member and a gain of three others in September and October. Want to invite new members? Place our invitation template on the talk page of anyone you would like to invite to our project. New Members We would like to welcome the new members who joined in September and October (by date joined): BalticPat22 (talk · contribs) Oskyplop (talk · contribs) Hollac16 (talk · contribs)

If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list. This Newsletter was delivered by Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey GreekStar. If I remember correctly, I asked a person I used to know from a forum to inform me about Mando's sales and chart peaks in Greece and Cyprous. I was sent an e-mail with the info that you can see in that page. Nevertheless, I am not sure at all about their validity. If you feel that they are incorrect, then please edit. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysterious Spy (talk • contribs) 17:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are very welcome, thanks for all of your hard work here! Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:40, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would look at model FA biography articles, and see how they do it, for example Ernest Shackleton puts dates at the end. My preference is for dates at the end as the events are what determines the sections / divisions, and the dates are just more information. However you decide, I agree that it is good to be consitent. If this is amicable, perhaps a third opinion would be the way to go? Everyone has to agree to abide by it beforehand though. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 05:19, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading File:AlterEgofuneralshot.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of "file" pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 06:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:LK 5 DVD Edit.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Peripitus (Talk) 00:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:Apagorevmeno Summer Tour.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Peripitus (Talk) 01:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar.

The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter

Project Talk Page The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter Issue XV - November and December 2009 Project News Happy Christmas and new year from WikiProject Eurovision. This is the second edition of the newsletter to be in a bimonthly format. This will probably continue at least up until the next Eurovision Song Contest when the project is more active. Editors are reminded that some articles covered WikiProject Eurovision are subject to the biographies of living persons policy. This does not just include biography articles such as Alexander Rybak, but any article with material related to living persons. Such information is highly sensitive, and unsourced or poorly sourced material about living persons must be removed immediately. Material which may seen trivial to editors, such as a false claim of participation in a contest, can potentially be highly sensitive to the living persons involved. Eurovision articles on this project have been repeatedly subject to a form of sneaky vandalism. This involves unregistered users adding false information to articles such as Eurovision Song Contest 2010 (while unprotected). These false claims are then made to look legitimate through the use of "fake references" with false titles and links, example. Cuchufleta (talk · contribs) was blocked indefinitely for creating multiple hoax articles with the same editing technique. Editors are advised to look out for further disruption of this kind, as it seems to be originating from a determined individial or an organised group. More information can be found at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision#User:Cuchufleta. Eurovision News The EBU released their participants list for the 2010 Eurovision Song Contest on 31 December 2009. 39 countries will take part. Five of these qualify directly to the final, with the 34 remaining countries each competing in one of two semi-finals (seventeen per semi-final). Five countries have declared they will be withdrawing from the contest in 2010. The Czech Republic are withdrawing due to three semi-final failures and a lack of interest from Czech viewers. Andorra, Hungary, Lithuania, and Montenegro have all declared they are withdrawing for financial reasons. Georgia is the only country that has declared it will be returning to the contest. No debuts are planned either with Liechtenstein's only broadcaster 1FLTV having ruled out joining the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) for December 2009. This made a debut by the country for the 2010 Contest no longer possible. Despite the 2010 Contest being many months away countries are now actively declaring which artists and songs will be representing them at the contest. A table for this can be found at Eurovision Song Contest 2010#Participants. Nearly all of the declared participants now have dedicated entry articles. The Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2009 was held on 21 November 2009 and was won by Ralf Mackenbach of the Netherlands with the song "Click Clack". Do you have news for the next issue? Submit it here! Page Milestones MelodyVision Song Contest and related articles have been deleted following a discussion at Articles for deletion (AfD). The article on Sakis Rouvas received a peer review which is now archived. The Samantha Womack article was not moved following a discussion. A fact from Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2010 appeared on the Main Page during 26 December 2009. From the Members Welcome to the fifteenth edition of the WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter! Another decade has past for the Eurovision Song Contest. The naughties will probably be remembered as a decade of both success and controversy for the contest. Televoting reached its peak in the early 2000s. This gave the contest a more democratic edge, but by 2008 it was widely believed to have made Eurovision resemble a political and geographic football match rather than a song contest. The EBU took action in 2009 by reducing televoting to having only a 50% weighting in the results of each contest. Many new countries have joined the contest in the last decade, bringing the number of participants to a new high. Among this some countries withdrew while others returned, though one of the major missing countries, Italy, did not make a return as was hoped by many. There was not a shortage of controversy either. Two participants went to war, and the buzz over the planned participation of Kosovo put Eurovision in the middle of a political storm. One also cannot forget that this decade saw the introduction of two spin-off contests - the Junior Eurovision Song Contest and the Eurovision Dance Contest. It is still not fully clear on how these fit into this project, perhaps we will work that out during the tens. Happy editing in a new year and decade, Camaron · Christopher · talk Member News The project currently has 80 members, with three joining during November and December. Want to invite new members? Place our invitation template on the talk page of anyone you would like to invite to our project. New Members We would like to welcome the new members who joined in November and December (by date joined): Chio21 (talk · contribs) Draggleduck (talk · contribs) Back4goode (talk · contribs)

If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list. This Newsletter was delivered by xenobot 14:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have violated the WP:Three revert rule on the Sakis Rouvas article, so I am forced to notify the Administrator's noticeboard. Greekboy (talk) 09:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The 3RR case has ended with a warning to you, since you made four reverts in 24 hours on 15 January. The full report is at WP:AN3#User:GreekStar12 reported by User:Greekboy (Result: Warned). Please do not continue to revert tags. If you disagree on whether something is sourced, make your case on the Talk page for why it really is sourced, or is so obvious that no source is needed. If the article contains WP:PEACOCK language, the phrase can either be removed or it can be fixed by rewriting. If people won't cooperate, the article may need to be fully protected. EdJohnston (talk) 05:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello GreekStar12! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 938 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

1. Kostas Kapetanidis - Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 11:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for uploading File:ProtereotitaEuroEdit2Disc.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale provided for using this file on Wikipedia may not meet the criteria required by Wikipedia:Non-free content. This can be corrected by going to the file description page and adding or clarifying the reason why the file qualifies under this policy. Adding and completing one of the templates available from Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your file is in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Please be aware that a non-free use rationale is not the same as an image copyright tag; descriptions for files used under the non-free content policy require both a copyright tag and a non-free use rationale.

If it is determined that the file does not qualify under the non-free content policy, it might be deleted by an administrator within a few days in accordance with our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions, please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you. FASTILY_sock^(TALK) 23:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for uploading File:PaparizouAnditheseisvideo.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale provided for using this file on Wikipedia may not meet the criteria required by Wikipedia:Non-free content. This can be corrected by going to the file description page and adding or clarifying the reason why the file qualifies under this policy. Adding and completing one of the templates available from Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your file is in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Please be aware that a non-free use rationale is not the same as an image copyright tag; descriptions for files used under the non-free content policy require both a copyright tag and a non-free use rationale.

If it is determined that the file does not qualify under the non-free content policy, it might be deleted by an administrator within a few days in accordance with our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions, please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you. FASTILY_sock^(TALK) 23:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for uploading File:PaparizouKatseKalavideo.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale provided for using this file on Wikipedia may not meet the criteria required by Wikipedia:Non-free content. This can be corrected by going to the file description page and adding or clarifying the reason why the file qualifies under this policy. Adding and completing one of the templates available from Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your file is in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Please be aware that a non-free use rationale is not the same as an image copyright tag; descriptions for files used under the non-free content policy require both a copyright tag and a non-free use rationale.

If it is determined that the file does not qualify under the non-free content policy, it might be deleted by an administrator within a few days in accordance with our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions, please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you. FASTILY_sock^(TALK) 23:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Dance: A few Wikipedians have gotten together to make some suggestions about how we might organize data in articles about Dance. Here are some articles they deal with: 18th century dance - 20th century ballet - American folk dance - Ballet comique - Canadian step dance - Country Western Dance International. It's dance moves and competitions, not singers.

WikiProject Gymnastics: Some have formed this collaboration resource and group dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of gymnastics, including the organization of information and articles on this topic area. Articles: European Championships, National championships by country, Other notable competitions, Gymnastics routines.

WikiProject Electronic music: This project seeks to categorize, organize and expand articles dealing with electronic music.

WikiProject Rock music: The Rock music WikiProject is a project, created on June 17, 2006, that helps to assemble editors interested in rock subgenres.

WikiProject Television: This is to guide the structure and normalize the standard of articles dealing with the Television medium and television series or other forms of episodic programs.

As you can see, Rouvas fits into none of these projects and they were removed for good reason. If you would like to have them included, please explain why I am "way off". Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:23, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please respond to this on the Rouvas talk so it can be a centralized discussion. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I just want to remind you that for every fact added to an article, there should generally be a source at the end of that specific sentence. I have noticed that you have not done some in quite a few instances, which leads us to have an article lacking adequate sourcing right from the beginning. Also it seems you are presenting rumors in some cases, as facts. Like that Paparizou wanted to perform on X-Factor but Sony did not let her. Or that the new album will include MAD songs, even though it has not officially been confirmed by Sony or Paparizou or anyone related directly to the album. Greekboy (talk) 08:25, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar.

The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter

Project Talk Page The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter Issue XVI - January and February 2010 Project News The articles by quality table has been changed for all WikiProjects as a result of changes to the WP 1.0 bot. Due to these changes editors are encouraged to add the {{EurovisionNotice}} banner to the talk pages of categories, files, templates, portals, disambiguation pages, as well as articles and project pages. This has the benefit of making the table more complete and covering such pages under article alerts. An FAQ has been created for the Eurovision Song Contest 2010 page in an attempt to mitigate repetitive discussions on the talk page about content in the article. This has not been previously done for a Eurovision article, though they are also used in other high profile areas such as Barack Obama and global warming. There has been persistent problems on Anna Vissi related articles with a disruptive IP hopping editor making repeated sweeping and unwanted changes to the articles despite being asked to stop. An account that displayed similar behaviour, JORJKIE.AV (talk · contribs), has now been blocked indefinitely and some pages have had to be semi-protected for long periods. Disruption continues from sock puppets of banned user Xtinadbest (talk · contribs), including on Eurovision related articles. Editors are advised to report suspicious activity from new accounts to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Xtinadbest. Eurovision News On 7 February 2010 a draw was held to decide which semi-final of the 2010 Eurovision Song Contest each country will participate in. The draw also decided, for countries qualified straight to the final, which semi-final they will vote in. Notable confirmed changes to the format of the Eurovision Song Contest this year include that the semi-finals will now be divided into two halves, and that voting will be open throughout each show rather than only after all entries have preformed. Five countries have now confirmed participation in the 2010 Junior Eurovision Song Contest which is scheduled for 20 November 2010. The contest will be held in Minsk, Belarus. It was announced in January 2010 that the Third Eurovision Dance Contest has been postponed a second time. It was originally due to be held in 2009, but was then postponed till 2010, and may now not happen at all, at least within the next two years. The EBU have justified the decision by saying there has been a decline in the popularity of TV dance shows. Do you have news for the next issue? Submit it here! Page Milestones Sandie Shaw was tagged as a possible copyright infringement, but problematic material has now been removed. It's All About You was moved to Nuk mundem pa ty following discussion. António Calvário, Ruslan Alekhno, and Spain in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest were proposed for deletion, however in all cases the proposals were contested. Pfuri Gorps & Kniri was nominated for deletion at articles for deletion (AfD) and deleted. Innocent Heart was nominated for deletion at AfD and was deleted. Due to disruption the page was also protected to prevent re-creation. Users may consult an administrator or make a nomination at deletion review if they wish to make a good faith attempt at re-writing the article. Je ne sais quoi (song) was nominated for deletion at AfD and kept. The participation of WikiProject Eurovision members was commented on during the discussion. From the Members Welcome to the sixteenth edition of the WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter! We're in full swing now! Although the Eurovision Song Contest is around 2 months away, this is probably one of the busiest times of the year for the WikiProject, with a whole load of semi-finals, quarter finals, heats as well as national finals to see who the country chooses to represent them at this years Eurovision Song Contest. We now know which of the 35 countries will vote and perform in which semi-final. With the 'Big Four' and host country, Germany and Spain voting in the first semi-final and France, Norway and the United Kingdom in the second semi-final. With 22 out of the 39 countries decided, we are just about half way through, with a whole lot more to come! So when creating new articles about a performer or song, please remember to add sources either from Eurovision.tv, ESCToday or other reliable sources. Please get involved, and contribute anything to articles whether it's a little spelling mistake or a whole new paragraph, and remember to look at the talk pages and have your say on any discussions that may be present. Keep up the good work! -- [[ axg ◉ talk ]] Member News The project currently has 80 members, with two joining and two leaving in January and February. One user left due to retirement, another due to being blocked indefinitely. Want to invite new members? Place our invitation template on the talk page of anyone you would like to invite to our project. New Members We would like to welcome the new members who joined in January and February (by date joined): HOUZI (talk · contribs) DannyBoy20802 (talk · contribs)

If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list. This Newsletter was delivered by xenobot 14:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated articles are Sakis Rouvas European Tour, Untitled English Album (Sakis Rouvas). We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated articles are I Megaliteres Epitihies + Kai Se Thelo, The Ballads (Sakis Rouvas album). We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Alexandra Zakka. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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Please refrain from making moves in the future, especially drastic ones concerning namings that have been discussed before, with out proper consensus or talk. There was a consensus on the naming of this album two years ago, that is archived on the album's talk page for this very reason. Thank you. Greekboy (talk) 22:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really consider this a drastic move when it is written like that on 1. the album cover 2. all MAD sources, including the videos of individual songs, (so this makes it pretty obvious), as well as the title it charted under in IFPI. It's not a stylistic issue, MAD calls the song "10 hronia mazi", but obv that's not the title of the album. GreekStar12 (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged File:Tamta_Rouvas_Tharros_I_Alitheia.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. Melesse (talk) 05:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged File:Rouvas_Politia_2010.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. Melesse (talk) 08:25, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Star, I hope all is well! It's been a while since you were last on AIM and I've been waiting forever for your critical assessment on various new releases :( . Also pending is a discussion on going forward with Rouvas GA of course, among several other things. Please appear soon!! Imperatore (talk) 00:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Star, yes I'm still around, albeit a lot less often. I was trying to reach you in the summer cause I was in your area again :P. Come on AIM or something :). Imperatore (talk) 18:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for adding several of these categories. However, each category should be supported by an article, in some of the cats you have created there is no article about the songwriter which means the category could be deleted at any time. Do you have the resources to create the articles to save the categories? Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 06:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well these are all acts that have written on multiple albums or in some case are also performers and would merit their own article. I'm sure it would be easy to find sufficient sources on them, but the main problem is that there are so many Greek articles that need to be made, including for much more notable acts and it is s/t that is being worked on. GreekStar12 (talk) 20:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not disputing the notability of the writers. It's just that cats should be supported by an article, and without that you might find another editor nominates for deletion, which defeats your objective. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter

Project Talk Page The WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter Issue XVII - March through July 2010 Due to the article alert bot being out of service indefinitely, it is now much more difficult for newsletter staff to keep up-to-date with all project activity. If editors wish to be sure that an article achievement or Eurovision news story is included in the newsletter, it is important that they let the newsletter writers know about it. Project News There is currently a proposal to restructure this WikiProject and further define its scope. All members are strongly encouraged to comment. The Newsletter Department is looking for editors who are willing to help publish the newsletter. Once published every month, a lack of help forced it to be published less and less often. Interested editors are welcome to suggest news, gather information, and suggest improvements. Looking for something to do? We have a large quantity of articles tagged for clean-up. Even addressing one tag would be a great help. You can see the full list here. According to our quality statistics, most articles are assessed. It is important to point out that articles are edited everyday! Take some initiative and confirm that the WikiProject Eurovision assessment for the article you are working on matches its condition and update it if necessary. We use the general assessment scale created by the Editorial Team. Members have been joining very slowly. A good project has as many members as possible and this helps in discussions and editing so that members are not overwhelmed. If every member could invite a friend or acquaintance using our invitation template, it would make our project much more efficient. One little edit on a friend's talk page? Why not, it takes two seconds! The membership list was recently re-organised with five usernames removed from the list due to these accounts being controlled by blocked or banned users, and to deal with cases where editors had added themselves to the list twice. Some usernames were also moved from the active to inactive list, and vice versa. Eurovision News The 2010 Contest was won by Germany's Lena Meyer-Landrut with the song "Satellite". The 2011 Contest will subsequently be held in Germany next year in a city and venue to be determined. Spain's 2010 performance was stage crashed by Jimmy Jump and they were given a second chance to perform their song following the last song of the final. Germany also became the first country to select its performer for the 2011 Contest, with Lena Meyer-Landrut set to defend her title. Austria announced it's return to the Contest for 2011, with its last appearance being in 2007 when it placed second to last in the semi-final and did not progress to the final. In late July, Liechtenstein submitted its application to join the EBU. With EBU membership, Liechtenstein would be able to take part in the Eurovision Song Contest. Managing director Peter Kölbel stated that there were "good chances" for a participation in 2011 if admittance is granted to the organization. Do you have news for the next issue? Submit it here! Page Milestones Was a page that you worked on nominated for a Did You Know? or did it gain Good Article or Featured Article status? Let us know! From the Members Welcome to the seventeenth edition of the WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter! I apologize for the lack of a newsletter these past few months as I had gotten quite busy in life. Adding to that, the lack of group participation by editors made me feel like my efforts were a waste of time that no one appreciates. I think it is important that we behave like a "club" of sorts and have fun editing Eurovision articles. Eurovision is a fun event and we should be able to discuss the results, talk about Contest related possibilities and work to expand knowledge of the Contest to those who may not be familiar with it. When I edit articles, I hope that someone will come along later and say "wow, all of this happened and I didn't even know it!" Come on guys, get each other's instant messenger name and team up to make an article great! Grk1011/Stephen (talk) Member News The project currently has 82 members, with seven joining and one leaving during the last five months. Note that the membership list was recently re-organised (see left), and that in the future only members listed as active Eurovision editors will receive this newsletter. Want to invite new members? Place our invitation template on the talk page of anyone you would like to invite to our project. New Members We would like to welcome the new members who joined between March and July (by date joined): AnemoneProjectors (talk · contribs) Donikanuhiu (talk · contribs) Ubastiff (talk · contribs) Redpower94 (talk · contribs) A.h. king (talk · contribs) Half price0 (talk · contribs) Joe692 (talk · contribs)

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Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of CT Cooper at 19:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC).[reply]

You do realize that the Elena article is only 91kb long while Rouvas' is 133kb and Michael Jackson's is 197kb? According to WP:SIZERULE, the article probably should be shortened if greater than 60kb, but over 100kb it definitely should. Being only 91kb, size is not a concern at the moment. Considering that Jackson is a featured article at 197kb, I think its safe to say that Elena's page has plenty of room to expand. Whether it is necessary considering the length of her career is another story. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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I have tagged File:Sakis_Ola_Kala_single.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Wikipedia, it must be included in at least one article. Otherwise, it will be deleted in seven days. Melesse (talk) 01:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On 18 October 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Sakis Rouvas Collection, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

— Rlevse • Talk • 12:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Greekstar, do you have the retail version of Parafora? It would be nice to clarify if Sakis Rouvas Music still holds, as the Ekdoseis Liberi edition solely states it's under licence by Minos EMI. Also the personnel section should be built up asap if you have the complete liner notes.

I migrated over to typical Western pop tracklisting template (writer/producer) cuz it was the only way to effectively capture the producers as you will see. Before that there were a handful of producers like Soumka missing, as he didn't have 'music/lyric' credit as he isn't a songwriter, so it wasn't very representative of who made the songs. Also some of those tracks that have foreign names for music/lyrics (in fact it's those tracks that have a hybrid "mousiki, stihoi" entry in the liner notes) those are obviously foreign published songs. Those non-Greek names obviously can't possibly contribute toward the Greek lyrics, but they are bundled together precisely 'coz everyone's a writer and that's how music publishers work - song credit publishing splits are not distinguished by music/lyrics, but just general writing, so that's why Minos EMI doesn't know themselves who's the composer and who's the lyricist specifically, so they just bundle together per the publishing convention. Also worth noting is that songwriters on publishing companies have splits indefinitely, so if one goes in and nukes the lyrical component to make new lyrics in a different language, then all the writers (of the original) per publishing get the royalty splits they're entitled to, regardless of who actually penned lyrics or composed a melody, or did both. This is another reason why music publishing doesn't work on the useless music/lyrics system, they're just concern about who will have ownership claims on a song, regardless of what language it's lyrically reinterpreted to in the future. In contrast, the Greek market songs have the usual music and lyrics separation (as Minos EMI has direct local knowledge and since there's no publishing to adhere to for royalty disbursement on Greek repertoire).

Oh and as I'm typing this I realize paragogi: "Sakis Rouvas Music", but it would be nice to know if this is just a colloquialism or if there's still is phonographic licencing (more likely than not anyway). Also check out my clarification of the Ekdoseis Liberi distribution (fixed price per print industry). It's great that Rouvas opted for this scheme instead of licencing to a newspaper, the cheap/tacky way; Instead he expanded his distribution by accessing newspaper channels, and cuz in Greece there's a periptero at every corner, that is sure to increase your distribution access by a million times. And cuz it's not a covermount on a magazine, it stands alone on the kiosk displays so visibility is definitely enhanced. Now of course there's been a few examples of artists who gone this route as well as of late (as in not a covermount, but using print distributor for standalone placement). BTW I began the covermount term on Greek pages after I discovered it on Prince's new European album lolol (I had heard of the term before but it hadn't struck me until now to swap it for Greek "newspaper" release pages.) Thank goodness Rouvas went this more sophisticated route, and didn't give into the bidding pressures of a newspaper for a one-time cash lump sum. He's definitely using the newspaper system but to his advantage for widening distribution only.

Furthermore, per the justification of that IFPIGR IT guy who answers all those fan emails, it would seem that this distribution scheme with Liberis would more likely than not fall under the criteria where their sales would be eligible for IFPI sales tracking. So hopefully if the correct Minos EMI/Liberis sales audits are commissioned and provided that IFPI does not misinterpret (if in fact it really is eligible), then Rouvas might actually get certed really quickly with actual real sales under his belt, unlike in the cases of those wars we have to fight against IP and other ignorant editors that claim newspaper sales as fake certs like on Paparizou lol. Imperatore (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I started a move discussion for Kalomoira after reading your comments on the talk page. It's been a few days and you have not commented in the discussion. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On 23 December 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Parafora (album), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sakis' Parafora (2010) received more bids than any other Greek album to be released as a covermount since the practice became common after the recent economic crisis, and all were refused? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 18:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kalispéra (kai Kalá Xristoúgenna!!!!) fíle GreekStar12,
I'm wondering: have you got Facebook? If so, and if it would please you, I'd like to get in contact with you on that network. You can find me on www.facebook.com/RobBruin
Ánte geiá, Robster1983 (talk) 19:22, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"This period marked the beginning of a commercial decline for Vissi into the end of the decade following the success of Kravgi". Where is this assumption coming from? A Despina Vandi forum that posted an article from Eleftheros Typos? To me it seems more like a personal state and should be removed. And also the sales of Apagorevmeno... you claim 27.000 copies "as of 2009". When in 2009? Until the end of the year? Because I doubt it! Also you wrote that every album after Kravgi was a commercial failure. As the article that you used as a source claims it was a bad period for many artists so it was more like a phenomenon that happens until today due to piracy and the so-called crisis. So you shouldn't compare the sales from previous years with the today data. Cause after all due to crisis the sales are still considered a success but yes it's a "failure" if we compare them with album sales 20 years ago --GhostFace1234 (talk) 08:30, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually going to chime in here referring to the "commercial decline" statement seeing as you have used it on a few pages. (along with the related "lowest selling album" in some cases) I don't think its really fair to say these artists had a commercial decline based solely on sales being less than their predecessor releases like you are stating now. It's not artist specific, its industry wide. You cant possibly compare an album from the 90s to today as the certification thresholds have been lowered (multiple times) by IFPI due to market conditions. It's not their fault piracy and the economy have hit sales hard. IFPI has seen that, and lowered the thresholds for those reasons. If anything, if you want to compare albums, their certifications would be a better comparison point. (along with the general success of the singles and the album's reception as well of course) I mean I would understand if you compared sales of two albums released during a period when the thresholds were the same, but this current comparison is ridiculous. This isn't even Vissi, Vandi, Rouvas, etc specific. I challenge you to name on artist (domestic or international) that is selling the same as he/she was in the past in Greece. You can't, because market conditions have deteriorated. And if you want to use statements like "Lowest selling album" at least elaborate on it. Leaving it just as is, makes it seem like the album was a failure when that may not necessarily be the case.Greekboy (talk) 10:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, firstly, I hope you actually read this and think about it before reacting. When I added that info it was late and I did it quickly so I realize there will need to be some modifications. Secondly, if your main concern about the inclusion of the source is that it was posted to a Vandi forum, even though it is clearly from a reliable national newspaper, then you are grasping at straws because I could easily just source the newspaper itself as the publication information is known, according to WP:Paywall regulations which state a source has to be published not necessarily accessible. I posted from that site as a courtesy to other users who would be interested in reading it. If you are going to take challenge my information, then take the initiative to take out the things you feel are inappropriate and not everything, like specific sales of albums by a reliable secondary source, which clearly trump unreliable primary sources for sales information. Certifications are the worst way to determine an album's success and they are generally disregarded when actual sales are known. Is Hatzigiannis' 7 his best-selling, most hit producing, or most culturally relevant because it was 5x platinum? No. Is Jackson's Bad generally considered to be the most successful of all time because it had the most hits? No. Unless you are going to change the rules of the music industry, success is based 95% on sales and 5% on other elements.

@Greekboy, I've had several personal conversations with you and you have always seemed reluctant to admit that the artists have any personal responsibility for their decline, especially when it comes to Vissi. You shouldn't let personal admiration for an artist take away your ability to see the facts, which are widely cited. Obviously there are various reasons that are only partially responsible for the low sales. There is always something going on in the music industry and generally the world, and you shouldn't get side tracked by recentism. There might be $ crisis and piracy in the past decade, but you forget as well that thresholds in the 90s declined twice from the pre-1990 ones. However, in that decade, especially the second half, did a huge amount of artists (like Sfakianakis, Garbi, Vissi, and Vandi among others) not have some of the most successful albums ever, better than most of the sales of the previous decades? Even in the early 2000s, when the piracy problem had started, did artists like Vandi not acheive astronomic sales of 170-200k? Didnt dozens of artists (Hatzigiannis, Remos, Ploutarhos, Alexiou) sell in the 150k range well into the mid 2000s? So after 2006 six figure sales declined for the majority, but did Hatzigiannis not maintain 120k sales an album into the late 2000s? ie Sfakianakis never matched the sales of 5o Vima (1996) even in that period and X which was released during the same threshold period as Kravgi sold significantly less at 100k. In the early 00s when Sfak and Vissi were selling 100k there were dozens of artists outselling them, same as the mid 00s when they were selling only roughly 40k. Vandi has been declining on every level ever since Gia at a very rapid pace.

The declines of Sfakianakis, Vissi, Vandi, and Garbi, namely, have been heavily cited. Other artists like Paparizou and Theodoridou were also briefly cited as their declines are not that notable of them; for them somewhere in their articles you could write something like they had somewhat of a decline by the late 2000s which was in part due to the condition of the industry. The higher you set the bar the farther you have to fall. Invincible by MJ sold 15M copies worldwide, more than literally 95% of all other albums ever, with almost no promotion, but it is generally regarded as a commercial failure. Wiki is about verifiability, so if a majority of the public view an album as a commercial failure it technically is, li