Talk:Papal renunciation

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Renunciation[edit]

It's not a "resignation", it's a "renunciation", or an "abdication"-- that is, an abdication of the Chair of St. Peter, representing the "Petrine Ministry" (i.e., the Papacy). There is a difference in wording, and historically, in almost all sources and textbooks it has never been deemed a resignation, but an abdication. However, Pope Emeritus Benedict clearly used "renunciation", which makes sense, too. Resignation is simply not the proper, actual, term, nor the term used historically, so the article should reflect that, especially in its title. The media, not understanding the inner workings of the Catholic Church, just sloppily misapplied an ahistorical and technically incorrect term. Wikipedia should be above that, and should seek to be as precise and accurate as possible, especially about such a complex historical and religious subject.

  • Bulleted list item Totally agree, though some editors seem not to have read this section. Also, the article heretofore has egregiously ignored that the Laws of the Catholic Church are in Latin, the English translations are only guides. Therefore the Latin of each canon should be cited. The English translations of the same in this article are also faulty. How to address that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:189:C480:29F0:D951:7DBD:9A54:55BE (talk) 10:22, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After?[edit]

Does anyone know what happens after the pope resigns? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamwisesun (talk • contribs) 02:08, 26 March 2008‎

I presume we should have Wikipedia-quality stultifying detail today, or tomorrow at latest - David Gerard (talk) 12:43, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Large chunks of this should be digested into this article; the ref is <ref name=CEAbdication/> .

Benedict XVI[edit]

another one popes up? More seriously, we've now got two references to the BBC story, which still *isn't* a confirmation, as much as it's "Reports from the Vatican" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquarion (talk • contribs) 11:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Text now says "the Vatican has confirmed" - David Gerard (talk) 11:23, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

if the last pope to resign resigned in 1415 and we have now 2013, it's obviously not "over 600 years" 89.245.84.52 (talk) 11:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch! - David Gerard (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In layman's terms[edit]

Could someone please translate into standard English the paragraph beginning "Apart from stating that...." under Incapacitation? I know all the words, but I can't make sense of what they're supposed to mean in this context. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What a horrible sentence. Hacking away at it now - David Gerard (talk) 13:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Better? (The reference links the important jargon words in the sentence, if anyone feels like translating it from technical jargon to English.) - David Gerard (talk) 13:40, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Still obfuscatory, but better. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a tangled circumstance, really. Someone can probably do better - David Gerard (talk) 14:17, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pope Gregory XII[edit]

The information on Pope Gregory XII (1406-1415) in the History section of the article states that he resigned. This is in conflict with the article "List of Popes" that states that he abdicated.

George Fleischmann — Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgefky (talk • contribs) 14:06, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no official such thing as "abdication" of a pope, but the word is commonly used for a resignation - see third paragraph of intro - David Gerard (talk) 14:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling[edit]

Spelling change - fulfil to fulfill Savaici (talk) 14:39, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Titles[edit]

Do former popes retain the title of pope (and other styles)? Theshibboleth (talk) 14:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Antipopes[edit]

Anyone feel like going through these? Of varying distance from official canon law, e.g. Antipope Felix V resigned but was arguably a bit distant, others may be closer. Antipope#List_of_historical_antipopes - David Gerard (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

February 28, 2013[edit]

Let's wait until February 28, 2013 before we replace Pope Gregory XII with Pope Benedict XVI, as the most recent pope to resign. GoodDay (talk) 15:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PEOPLE, there's no fire here. Wait until he resigns. GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh for bleep sake, I give up. GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wording of Benedixt XVI's Resignation[edit]

Alright, for the sake of staying WP:CIVIL and before anyone goes over WP:3RR, we need to discuss whether the current pope's statement says that he HAS resigned or WILL resign. Here is the Pope's statement, according to BBC News[1]:

"For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is."

According to GoodDay, the Pope "will resign on 28 February," while David Gerard says the Pope "had resigned with effect from 28 February." David Gerard says, in an edit summary: "the BBC quote is quite unambiguous: he's resigned, it takes effect 28 feb. what is not clear from his own words?"

I am personally inclined to go with David Gerard's opinion, as that is how I interpret the Pope's statement. However, I'd like there to be consensus before reverting anything. Sang'gre Habagat (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Both styles mean the same thing - Benedict XVI ceases to be Pope (2PM EST) February 28, 2013. The style I'm pushing is more easily understood. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It also implies he hasn't resigned yet - more easily understood, but not accurate - David Gerard (talk) 17:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Have to concur there. The concept of a resignation with an effective date in the future is not that unusual, I don't see any need to avoid it for clarity. "X is resigning from Y as-of some-date" is a common form. Dd-b (talk) 18:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But it's cumbersome & unnecessary. GoodDay (talk) 18:28, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But he hasn't resigned yet [2]. He's still the pope. DG's wording suggests that Benedict can't change his mind & remain as pope past Feb 28. GoodDay (talk) 18:14, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I can provide a hefty number of secondary sources that use resigning on February 28, 2013, if required. GoodDay (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure you can find hastily-miswritten media coverage as efficiently as I can, but the source statement is still clear and unquestioned - David Gerard (talk) 19:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your version is incorrect. But, I'm not gonna bother fighting over this, as such a discussion will become moot on February 28, 2013. GoodDay (talk) 19:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Updating[edit]

I'm trying to update the fact, that Benedict resigned on February 28, 2013 - with accompany source. Why am I being reverted? GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Pope resigned on February 28, 2013. Why is that even being disputed? GoodDay (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of papal resignations[edit]

I'm sorry to write that this List of papal resignations is partially wrong or, at least, incomplete. The first pope who resigned is considered Pope Clement I. His resignation can be dubious but he should be mentioned too, as Pope Liberius, Pope Marcellinus, Pope John XVII. Anyway, the first who resigned without any doubts was Pope Silverius, as Catholic encyclopedia is stating in its first sentence too: Pope St. Silverius. --Gambo7 (talk) 01:00, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

From which we learn that the Catholic Encyclopedia happily contradicts itself ... if only they'd used a wiki to write it! But yeah, we should add any more notes in it of papal resignations.
I'm not entirely sure the "List" table is even a good idea - too many of the early ones are dubious - David Gerard (talk) 12:10, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But the CE doesn't say that Silverius resigned. It says that he was deposed against his will. The English translation of Liber Pontificalis agrees, but breaks from its usual format by not stating the exact length of his reign. As for the list format, I'll make some edits to address this and you can see what you think. 50.136.204.189 (talk) 06:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's right..I was wrong, it's not CE but Liber Pontificalis who says that Silverius decided to resign because of his exile --Gambo7 (talk) 15:04, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, Liber Pontificalis' does not. The text doesn't lend itself to summary but you can read it here. His fate was very much decided for him. 50.136.204.189 (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for Resignation[edit]

Saying that the resignation is unrelated to any scandal seems to be original research at best and PoV at worst. Unless there is a citation, I think Wikipedia should not be making such a broad declaration. 66.87.70.104 (talk) 01:16, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Benedict doesn't need to be added to the table until February 28, 2013. There's no rush. PS: I've opened a discussion at WP:CATHOLICISM, concerning the insconsitancy with this article, compared to Pope Benedict XVI & Papal conclave, 2013. -- GoodDay (talk) 03:28, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Editing consensus on this article is really clearly against you - David Gerard (talk) 11:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's no consensus for having Benedict XVI in the table. You just seem to think you own the article. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He doesn't have to be added, but seeing as his announcement said "I renounce" in present tense, he can be. Even if he were to expire or take it back, he still would be a pope who resigned. There is, however, little point in fighting about it for two weeks.50.136.204.189 (talk) 22:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just don't see the point in adding him before he resigns on February 28. It would be like adding February 28, 2013 to the infobox at Pope Benedict XVI. If you did, it would be reverted. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you didn't read what I said. Anyway, there's no point in me edit warring and there's really no point in you doing it either. 50.136.204.189 (talk) 23:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a stickler for accuracy. But, you're correct, edit-warring won't solve anything. The dispute will be moot, after February 28. GoodDay (talk) 01:42, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pope Emeritus[edit]

Roman Pontiff Emeritus has been announced as the new titles in English, and that the garb will be a simple white cassock with brown shoes. Would it go into this article or a new one? -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 00:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should certainly be linked here - David Gerard (talk) 08:49, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article name and use in text[edit]

@CanonLawJunkie: The title is "Papal resignation", but the lead introduces it as "papal renunciation", then the rest of the article continues to call it "resignation". What's the deal here? Should the title be switched? Or should the lead be changed to distinguish between the common and formal names for the same thing? Deus vult (aliquid)! Crusadestudent (talk) 01:58, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RM??[edit]

FWIW, the article shouldn't have been moved from Papal resignation to Papal renunciation, without a discussion. GoodDay (talk) 20:01, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There was no indication anywhere that this would be controversial. The article text, esp. the lead, already used "renunciation", and it is indeed the more technically correct term. I asked about the change in May, and no one responded. If you object, you are free to start and RM yourself, but my move was well within policy. RM's are not an absolute requirement. Thank you. juju (hajime! | waza) 22:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
BTW back in May my screen name was still "Crusadestudent". juju (hajime! | waza) 22:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Conditional renunciations[edit]

Pope Francis has signed a conditional resignation, if he were to resign because of health issues.--82.128.136.247 (talk) 14:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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