User talk:Kevin Murray

User talk:Kevin Murray/archive one

I was already talking with you on the talk page, and using a post-WP:BRD-ian revert to actually invite Minderbender into the conversation. That didn't quite work then. Oh well back to the drawing board. Anyway, discuss on talk?

Note that How to create policy does not in fact have consensus, and admits as much implicitly in the body text.

It might be marked guideline, but it seems to me that this is simply a mislabeling. --Kim Bruning 00:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah you just replied there! Hmm, future note, talk first, then revert, else you end up starting two channels! :-) --Kim Bruning 00:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please cast your WP:CREEP detector toward a guideline (under construction) called Wikipedia:Micronations. Regards. Edison 23:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely agree that having the songs guideline incorporated in WP:MUSIC is the far, far preferable solution. Thanks for driving that. UnitedStatesian 14:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than talking about "processes to demote policy" which we don't actually have on Wikipedia, it would help if you made an argument about the content of that page on its talk page. Analysis shows that (1) nearly no policy on Wikipedia was ever written using the methods described here, and (2) nearly all proposals made using the methods described here fail. >Radiant< 15:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• It's always about the reasoning, never about the headcount. >Radiant< 15:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You say it "has been instrumental in curbing Creep" - got any evidence of that? It would seem that instead, it has been instrumental in creating creep. >Radiant< 15:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I'd be happy to remove all the parts that are bad advice, misrepresent actuality, or simply don't work, but if I do that there won't be much left of the page. >Radiant< 15:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, Radiant is wikipedia's one-man anti-creep brigade. We've always needed to watch him to make sure he didn't occasionally kill a process or policy that was actually (still/already) in mainstream use.;-) --Kim Bruning 00:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think he's kinda CREEPy. d;-) --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

O iaRLY :) >Radiant< 14:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is not currently consensus to determine that the proposal is unlikely to achieve consensus. There should be some warning before placing a "rejected" template on a page to see what arguments are advanced for or against the template. You gave no warning before doing it. You cannot singlehandedly make that determination, not called for by anybody else, and then revert to your version over the objections of another editor. Currently, there is one editor in favour of the template and one against. Inactivity is not in itself a reason to say that consensus is unlikely to form. I am going to remove the template, and you can propose on the talk page that a "rejected" template be placed on the page. People will of course express their views on the possibility or impossibility of eventual consensus, rather than on the proposal itself. Joeldl 10:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[1]. >Radiant< 12:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[2] I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's not about the number of users. It's about the content of the page. >Radiant< 12:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually, it strikes me that if the HCP page was a proposal, then based on the systematic dissent on the talk page, you would reject the page as part of your cleanup of CAT:PRO. It would seem that this page does not meet your standards of being a "guideline". >Radiant< 12:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• A fine bit of logic, but flawed in that this page was already an accepted guideline, not a floundering proposal. This is one reason why I'm admonishing people to be careful about acknowledging proposals as guidelines since there is no clear-cut process for deprecating them. Clearly the precedents are that removing a guideline is more difficult than removing a proposal (i.e., protecting the status quo). --Kevin Murray 12:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And why do you think it is an accepted guideline? Do you base this only on the presence of the tag or do you have some other benchmark? >Radiant< 12:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Charles Murray.gif) was found at the following location: User:Kevin Murray/IQ draft. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 20:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that there's no consensus behind Wikipedia:WikiProject Pokémon/Layout; general support of the project can be found on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pokémon's archives. Thing is, there's just little effort put into it at the moment, which is largely attributed to the WPP members enjoying the recent release of Pokémon Diamond and Pearl. In general, the only arguments from the opposition are WP:ILIKEIT and WP:USEFUL, so the movement actually is in regards to Wikipedia standards. What's going on is really only a "It's a good idea, but it's a chore" sort of situation. You Can't See Me! 22:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Discover Sept 1982.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Kevin Murray/IQ draft. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 00:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since I accidentally hit enter before I was done: a) Your determination that there will never be consensus regarding this issue is premature, especially since there are only three users objecting, refusing to compromise, and who are not related to highways; and b) Since you are opposing the policy, it is a conflict of interest for you to tag this as {{rejected}}. Get an uninvolved party to do this rather than doing it yourself. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since you do not express interest in highways, and that you oppose it, you are no longer neutral. Because of this, you are welcome to discuss it, but not change it back to rejected. V60 ^{干什么？ · VDemolitions} 03:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This talk page is becoming very long. Please consider archiving. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Jensen2.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Kevin Murray/IQ draft. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 10:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin, I posted a query at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (neologisms) asking about the discussion of the rename that you mention in the edit summary for the move. I'm not sure if you've seen that, so I'm posting here to ask again. If you're referring to the discussion a couple of paragraphs higher up on that page, which you and I participated in, I have to say that it didn't look to me as if we reached consensus on any changes. Did you have a different discussion in mind? Thanks. Mike Christie (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kevin: I agree that there hasn't yet been enough discussion on the "Level Playing Field" question but it seems that we are the only 2 editors interested - by making the edit I was hoping to get some comment. Any orther ideas?? NBeale 14:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kevin. Sure enough a major museum has now announced a photogrpahy competition which will make thousands of otherwise unknown photographers "notable". Shall we try the suggested amendment and see if anyone else can comment on it? Or can you amend the suggestion? NBeale 05:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, perhaps my comment was too personal and shouldn't have been made in that way. But I wanted to warn Truth About Spelling that you have been very aggressive in your editing. You were with me by reverting back to "rejected" after I protested. The normal thing to do in those cases is to temporarily leave the status quo in place and begin a discussion. I think trying to scare people off from contributing to policy discussions is a bit of a no-no too, whatever the reason. I felt that there was a bit of a problem in acting as if seniority was the only important thing in establishing an editor's credibility to contribute to a discussion. Isn't one's own adherence to policy just as important? Also, there was nothing wrong with Truth About Spelling's contribution. He was honest about his familiarity with procedure but was expressing an opinion on the substance of the issue. So what. Why shouldn't he? Anyway, there's discussion, now, other editors... It shouldn't be personal. But to be perfectly honest, I was offended by your aggressiveness. Joeldl 15:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see no compelling reason not to. >Radiant< 21:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC) and I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdphilp (talk • contribs) 14:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You said, "The concept of having bus schedule in WP goes against the concept of ignificant or non-trivial". I tend to agree with you, but Category:Bus routes proves that other people disagree. Perhaps we should drop one or two of them on AFD to see what the community thinks. >Radiant< 09:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stop misleading people. >Radiant< 08:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The articles oringinal creator User:Davegnz believed the most recent changes were vandalism and was trying to get the article deleted again. He was attempting to re-open a new afd. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please chip in at WT:AIRCRAFT. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 16:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would specifically appreciate an outside view at the thread Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Input_requested_for_Boeing_B-29_Superfortress_Survivors. What do you feel is the appropriate action? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 16:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kevin - noticed you put your hand up to help. You might like to take a look at the list of missing aircraft and help fill in some of the blanks --Rlandmann 23:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are my editor of the month for this. Chris Croy 23:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hope all is well just wanting your help following is the last message left on my Talk page by User David Cannon

---

Your articles Just letting you know that the decision of the AFD vote was to delete Turaga na Rasau, Turaga na Ravunisa, Keni Naulumatua, Keni Naulumatua II, and Mere Tuisalalo pending sourcing.

In practical terms, that means that if and when you can get a credible source to cite, as you have been planning, just let me (or any other administrator) know, and we'll restore the relevant articles. (They're still in the system, accessible only to administrators). User:Davidcannon 09:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

---

with that in mind two weeks ago I left a message on Davids talk page but it appears with the message he left on his user page that he will be busy for some time and won't be able to respond to much of anything anytime soon, having said that I was wondering if you could assist as an administrator to restore my Turaga na Rasau article so I am able to edit it, clean it up and then add all my variuos sources.

I would be grateful for your help and feedback on this matter.

Vinaka Maikeli MB 06:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have just created two new articles one being Fijian Religion and the other being Fijian Tradition & Ceremony, your input and help would be very much appreciated when you have the time.

Vinaka Vaka Levu Maikeli MB 02:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Melges logo.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Given all our conversations at WT:N, your comment means a lot to me. Best, Black Falcon ^(Talk) 20:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin, a few weeks ago, you asjed if there was anything you coud do to help the WP:AIR project. If you are still interested, I have some sandbox articles that need some work to get ready for the mainspace. In particular, I need help converting text "copied" from other sources into usable, sourced, encyclopedic text. Rewriting text wholesale is pretty tedious for me, as I am usually better at copy editing and tweaking. If this is something you'd be interested in doing, please let me know. I have all my sandboxes listed on my userpage. The 3 projects I'm concentrating on right now are User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Sikorsky X2, User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Sikorsky S-69, and User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Sikorsky S-75. If interested, could you take a look at these, and see if you are able to help? Thanks for whatever way you can help. - BillCJ 17:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading Image:DavidLynchGraphic.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 02:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support with this article. I really want to make a legitimate contribution, and I'm doing my best to fill in the blanks. I will find citations for everything, I'm working on it but it takes a little longer for non-internet sources. I only hope the article is not deleted before I can ensure it conforms to the guidelines. I'm going to get the citations, please let me know if there is anything else I can do. Thanks again for your help! paprikaphd 23:09, 17 June 2007

I went back and read comments about the propsed name change. I certainly don't have a problem changing the name. The reason I listed it as "Judge Patrick Willis" was that I found several other judges listed that way. What do I need to do to fix it? paprikaphd 16:56, 17 June 2007

Thanks for the help, and the compliment. I hope it was enough to save the article! paprikaphd 19:07, 19 June 2007

We made it! Deletion notice was removed, the article's a keeper. Thanks for all your help! paprikaphd 21:49, 22 June 2007

A tag has been placed on Burger Boat Company, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that you can assert the notability of the subject, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Wikipedia guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Haemo 10:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind me -- I'm a dunce sometimes. --Haemo 10:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Kevin Murray, would you mind looking at your revert of my edits here? In my edit I bolded the title per conventions, wikilinked the town its based in, added a citation needed, added some hyphens where appropriate, fixed a typo on the word service, moved a citation from the inside of a period to the outside (per convention), and removed references that you listed twice. In the version you just reverted to, the three sources you footnoted now exist in two sections. It only needs to be listed once (in the reference list generated by the footnoting). Would you mind reexamining your revert? Thanks, Metros 19:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Current thoughts on general vs special criteria: --I've argued both ways from time to time, for the contradiction can be used to get any desired result. If anything, it shows we need flexible rules, because after all the real point is "encyclopedic". Current idea: special rules for broad groups, then 2RSs if needed to decide or if no other rules apply. and, personally, I would include anything in de WP except perhaps German local figures--I trust them more than I trust us here--but I do not see how i can propose that :) .DGG 20:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revert? Compound diff. The Cretan republics are some of the Greek city-states, almost all of which were republics - in any sense - at least at some point, Sparta being one of the few exceptions (perhaps the only one); including them is therefore redundant. The senses of republic on which WHEELER insists are all archaizing, being literal translations of res publica or politeia, which could mean city-state, constitutional government, or (in some passages in Aristotle) mixed government. (Aristotle had doubts whether Sparta qualified.) There is no real point in including that in articles on "republic", except as cross-references.

As for people's republics: I believe the standard position to be that they were Republics, without being free states. Tito, for example, was a dictator, but not a monarch; his family did not succeed him.

As for WHEELER's references, they are all, except for his Fearless Leader, Rahe , either dated or not English; most are both. They do not, in any case, belong in a list article, which is a navigational aid. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, might one of the existing template do for this? Rich Farmbrough, 10:34 18 June 2007 (GMT).

Hello, I hope you are doing well. I have re-labeled Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Notability as a proposed guideline. I'm attempting to incorporate new suggestions from the Guideline Talk page, as well as to generate new discussion.

I thank you for providing a link to WP:ORG, that guideline is interesting, but not conclusive with respect to college football topics. According to WP:ORG, any team would meet notability criteria since they always are the topic of multiple non-trivial media reports. However, there are other questions that WP:ORG does not address. For instance, individual team seasons and individual contests such as bowl games.

These have been issues that in the past have wasted cycles in AfD and other discussions, and for that reason a guideline for the college football wikiproject is still useful. Johntex\^talk 00:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Kevin, thanks for your note. Please don't worry, I understand your motives. You are right in a way, all these guidelines can lead to a slippery slope situation - but that can work in reverse too. We could just as easily say that we shouldn't have a general guideline on organizations (WP:ORG) because it could lead to someone wanting a guideline on college football!

It would be fine with me if we just had one guideline - something like: "ANY topic is notable enough for an article if the topic is the subject of multiple non-trivial works." Until we agree on something that simple then instruction creep is a possibility.

I would like though to respond to your tongue in cheek example of guidelines for bowling tournaments, knitting tournaments, etc. One answer to this type of question is to say that if/when those activities get popular enough for an active wikiproject, then it would be appropriate for that wikiproject to come up with notability guidelines.

You may be right that it may be difficult to get agreement on a guideline such as this, but I see no reason why it should be impossible. The alternative is to have these debates one-by-one at AfD. That wastes everyone's time not only in the debate, but also in creating the article if it ends up being deleted. For that reason, it is far better to try to get a guideline in place so that deletion questions can be settled more quickly. Thanks again for your note. Johntex\^talk 00:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...for you support at my RFA and (especially) for your hard work on the notability guidelines. I know you catch some flack, and I can't say I always agree with you, but I definitely think your efforts have made Wikipedia better.--Kubigula (talk) 04:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC) (p.s. please consider archiving this page)[reply]

Sorry for trying to update WP:BIO without enough prior discussion. We do need something that notes that for major cities we typically aim to have articles on all councillors. Toronto City Council, New York City Council, Chicago City Council, Ottawa City Council, and many others either have articles on all members, or will in the near future. Something should be added to prevent the unaware users from nominating such people for deletion. I agree that the term "major city" is vague. Can you think of an alternate wording that would work better? - SimonP 20:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I very much agree that our various policies should allow articles on any councillors that get enough press coverage to write verifiable articles, but unfortunately that is not how WP:BIO is being interpreted. If you look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eli El-Chantiry, for example, you will see that a number of users are interpreting the page to mean that articles on councillors are verboten. This will continue without some change to that page. - SimonP 00:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although we were on different sides of this discussion, I appreciate that you remained civil the entire time while disagreeing with people's votes. It's not that usual to see people disagreeing in a civil manner lately on Wikipedia (and I'm an offender). I also appreciate that you asked questions and directed (or tried to) discussion towards the issues involved with either keeping or deleting this and similar articles, in an attempt to develop future guidelines, rather than focusing on the narrow issue of one article. Thanks. KP Botany 18:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The picture was "overlapping" the text because you changed its alignment from left to right in this edit, which forced it up against the edge of the column.

I set up those paragraphs up in columns for two reasons:

1. a general rule of layout is that pics in text should alternate between right and left alignment, unless they are in a vertical row to make point (e.g. they represent a sequence of events).
2. to avoid ugly "doglegs" within the text.

I'm not sure why you wanted that pic on the right anyway(?)

Grant | Talk 02:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin, I don't know what browser you are using, but I checked this in both Internet Explorer and Firefox — maybe you are using something else.

Here is the page before you changed the alignment: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Curtiss_P-40&oldid=144019569

Here is the page after you changed it: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Curtiss_P-40&oldid=144020207

Regards, Grant | Talk 03:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit form my page: "re: Lindbergh Hi. Don't want to get into a pissing match here, but this seems like a reasonable statement. Do you dispute that Lindbergh was the first to fly nonstop from a mainland location to a mainland location? Perhaps I'm wrong on this. I have only been trying to edit other contributions into a more clear and concise text. I don't want to be difficult, but don't want to see good information omitted without reason. Cheers! --Kevin Murray 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)"[reply]

Hi Kevin: In response, this article was the subject of a considerable edit war recently and I had to ask for administrators to redress the problem. As to whether this is a reasonable or not statement, it is not germane to the flight of the Spirit. Neither Ireland or Newfoundland can be considered "obscure" islands which were the start-end points of previous Atlantic overflights but nonetheless, the Orteig Prize was intended to recognize the first flight from New York to Paris, with a specification that the flight be non-stop. That is the claim to fame of the Lindbergh flight. Introducing an element of first "mainland-to-mainland" claim is fine but it was not what the Orteig Prize was intended to do. Raymond Orteig was a hotelier and promoter who saw the chance to exploit the Atlantic flight to raise the prestige of his hotel and incidentally that of France. The main notability of Lindbergh's exploit was that it was a solo flight as differentiated from the other competitors who had a multi-person crew (and often a twin-engined or larger aircraft type). I will include the note in the body of the text in the description of the flight's legacy but I felt that it was not the historic recognition of "mainland-to-mainland" that should appear in the introductory passages but the successful navigation of the Atlantic from New York to Paris in a solo flight. FWIW Bzuk 19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Hi Kevin,

Father Goose and I have developed competing versions for a possible guideline on relevancy. I note you have previous participated at this project. Your contributions would be timely now.

• Draft REL2 REL2.1 by Father Goose
• Draft REL3 by WikiLen

My draft is the current proposed guideline only because I made mine after Father Goose did his. This is not to suggest either version is favored. Thanks for your interest... —WikiLen 03:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually not a newbie, just newly editing. That being said, I can always learn more and I'd love to get your feedback. I'll make a post on the VP soon and let you know. I'm editing Joe Montana right now, so i want to finish up that the section i'm working on before i jump to a new "train of thought" so to speak. Many thanks for your friendly attitude, it's a rarity around here. Jmfangio ► Talk 15:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It happens. A handful of editors basically railroaded their way over me and an entire project. It was a whole big mess and lasted about a month. A lot of nasty things happened and most at my expense. I eventually lost my cool with them and told them to "F-off" very publicly when nobody would step in and offer good help. I went to the MedCab, RFA, and a whole mess of other things. An admin even got into it with me (or me with him depending on your perspective) and then started using his admin powers to silence me while he falsely accussed me of things, talk about improper behavior huh. But whatever, one projects loss is anothers gain (well - at least i tell myself that to make me feel better about it!).

Anyway, I have not seen any "guidelines" in place for striking comments. I've seen small mentions of it here and there, but no real guideline or policy. Am I just not looking in the right place or does this need to be considered for guideline inclusion? I added this page to my watch list to make it easier on you. Jmfangio ► Talk 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you clarify what you mean by striking comments? --Kevin Murray 16:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Here is a comment that has been struck I have opened a discussion (per your advice) here Jmfangio ► Talk 17:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• OK so your concern is over regualtion of people striking out your comments? --Kevin Murray 17:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, like I said, I don't really want to go down that road with them again. I don't particularly care and this person, and the rest of them, will certainly bring up the issue they have with me being a WP:SOCK who has been banned. I will certainly refer to WP:IAR in that my edits are almost exclusively based on bettering the content available and the I tend to lean more towards the "deletionist" attitude when dealing with repetative content. I am just thinking that establishing some guidelines for the use of striking comments will help people understand when it is an editing tool to be relied on. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And btw, i'm not saying I am a sock, only that they accused me of being one and then found me guilty. It was a pretty ridiculous situation. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• You are implying but not clearly stating your concern. Aside from the past politics, I believe that your concern is that people/admins are striking out your comments at discussion pages. Is that correct? --Kevin Murray 17:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of, but not exactly. My concern is that a user is striking another users comments unilaterally. The fact that it involves me is imaterial as I don't care what happens in this case. I simply think establishing some guidelines could be useful to the community as a whole. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• But this has to do with talk pages only, not strikeouts on the articles themselves. --Kevin Murray 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the instance I am familiar with is only on talk pages. Then again, I would think that the guideline could/would extend to all articles in general. The best that I have seen is a brief mention of striking at WP:TALK. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you wrote:

I read your comment at MoritzB's talk page, and looked bit deeper into the issue. Niggerhead seems to be a common term (pleasant or not) used frequently enough so that WP has a disambiguation page. I can't speak to MoritzB's motivation in inserting the term into the gems article, but it does seem plausible that it is factual (see coral) and that his intent was appropriate. I don't know the history of your relationship with Moritz, but the harsh accusation may be unwarranted. Cheers! --Kevin Murray 17:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My comments and Ramdrake's comments were harsh if you approach the question as a supporter of white supremacy, which MoritzB does support. The role of MoritzB on many pages pertaining to race history demonstrates that fact.Skywriter 03:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Skywriter, I can only evaluate Moritz based on limited experience. However, we should remain civil at WP. He is entitled to his political opinions no matter how unsavory they might be. So far his comments have been in suggetion of Jewish supremacy which vastly differs from the mainstream white supremist position. Cheers and to better times together! --Kevin Murray 04:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was not aware of your appointment as defender of MoritzB or of guardian of civility. If MoritzB wants to race-bait, then MortizB reveals self as race baiter. Nothing uncivil about that if you like race baiting. Calling race baiting what it is -- is factual.

Further, you overstepped your bounds in failing to take changes to talk page. You seem to overlook that there has been recent active discussion on talk page of Race and Intelligence. You don't seem to be a big fan of seeking consensus especially in the presence of active discussion. The removal of the Melvin Konner reference will not only be reverted-- it will be expanded. The link to Amazon merely was to show his book was well-received. Someone else removed the citation which I will reinstate. He has a point of view not represented in this article, and an informed one at that as he is both an antbropologist and MD. Cheers.Skywriter 04:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer that you not try to pain me into a corner as an appologist for an unsavory position. I am merely politely reminding you of the WP Standards of civility. If youd prefer, I'll just refer future issues to an admin, although I'd rather just keep in between editors. --Kevin Murray 04:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that you stop taking comments personally, particularly when they are not directed at you. It is factual that white supremacists as well as anti-racists are editing this article. Whether or not you see one or the other as unsavory is quite beside the point. Whether or not you choose to run to an admin is entirely your option. Skywriter 04:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pseudoanonymous 18:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Triscuits and Wheat Thins are tied for number one in my book, but VERY close to Chicken In a Biscuit. So you need to lower your blood sugar, and I need to raise mine (hypoglycemic). Odd, but I have seen you at Guinea Pig as well. I have no idea what they have in common, but for 4 million users, this place seems increasingly small to me. I got seasick just looking at your contributions. Haha. the_undertow ^talk 02:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kevin,

Wikipedia:Relevance requests your presence — see, "Call for editor participation" at the talk page. —WikiLen 17:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen you're very active in the area of notability on Wikipedia. I've asked a question here about actively demonstrating that an article is not notable. I would really value any thoughts or comments you might have.

Many thanks! TreveX^talk 13:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I've mentioned on the article's talk page, the photo could be a later Charger Loading Lee-Metford- it's not clear enough to tell. At any rate, the only real difference between a CLLM and a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield is the rifling, so as such I think the picture should stay until someone finds a better one... given the relative scarcity of actual MLM rifles, I think it's going to be a while. --Commander Zulu 07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:C320_Profile.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 01:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:C400_Aft_Cabin.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 02:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:C42_Galley.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 02:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:C470_Laundry.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 02:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why, but you deleted stuff on this page- it's not meant to be modified (sorry if you had a good reason- I can't think of one at the moment). Perhaps you meant to edit the listings at User:Staeckerbot/Suspicious images? Staecker 01:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No problem- but... you did it again. User:Staeckerbot/Suspiciousbox is being used as a template on the list page, so you should edit the listing, not the box. If you want to remove an image from the list, just edit User:Staeckerbot/Suspicious images and remove the particular line which calls the template with the image that you're concerned with. If you actually blank Suspiciousbox, this will blank all listings, which we don't want. Staecker 11:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I 100% agree about these articles being unencyclopedic, but it's been "voted" they are. They've been up for deletion a couple of times. I couldn't believe there would be such articles on an encyclopedia and made a big fuss in the begining. Oh well. Thanks for the offer of the back-up. I get a little heated about these subjects, just because they attract all kinds of strange attention. Me included. lol. Cheers! :) - Jeeny ^Talk 9 August 2007 17:52 (UTC)

Let's hope that's what they mean by "building consensus". :)--Ramdrake 19:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hi, thanks for acknowledging my changes.

i added gordon brown to keep the article more up tyo date (he is current british priminister) but mainly to show a more representative picture of brits. With tony blair in, there were 2 brits with light hair and light eyes (john f kennedy included), so i added a dark haired and dark eyed brit, as about 30% of brits have dark eyes and most brits have dark brown hair anyway, only a minority have light hair. Most brits have either dark or mixed eyes and most brits have dark hair.

I think the german pictures might need to be changed to include a dark haired german aswell as most germans dont have blonde or light brown hair.

Im trying to iron out national stereotypes.

about the basque, by all means keep the photo of this person, i just thought the astronaut was more famous.

cheers.

sure by all means change the german or austrian, but i think a dark haired and maybe dark eyed german or austrian should be included, again merley to iron out national stereotypes. germans and brits are not much darker haired than the french afterall and yet the french person chosen has dark hair.

im off now.

peace.

Would you agree to informal mediation (Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal) in order to try to resolve our disputes over Wikipedia:Relevance of content?--Father Goose 00:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the mediator would like each of us to formally agree to opening the case: Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-08-16_Relevance_of_content.--Father Goose 22:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your approach sounds very reasonable. As I say on talk, I am not altogether opposed to celebrities. WP:UCS. Makka Sagaipova, but not Tom Cruise, Margaret Thatcher or Saddam Hussein. I do hope you can further improve the collection, but I guess I got tired of the task: it's difficult enough in itself, but the bickering by all sorts of ideologists that comes with it makes it near-impossible. dab (𒁳) 13:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

let me add that I am not opposed to galleries in general either. But any gallery with a claim to encyclopedicity will need to annotate each image, at least with the area or ethnicity of origin of the person depicted. dab (𒁳) 13:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

an alternative would be using mugshots of Wikipedians who are willing to reveal their ancestry (Category:Irish Wikipedians). There is some room for debate regarding WP:V here, but I am sure we can get some good images in this way -- have a look at commons:Category:Wikipedians.

Let me add that I am intrigued by your self-description-by-userboxes: not that I'd agree with everything you say there, but I'm definitely with you regarding the 'beer' and the 'speak plainly and honestly' parts. We need more of both, but especially of the latter :) dab (𒁳) 15:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you haven't used Wikimedia Commons before, it can be a little confusing. You can find information at commons:Commons:First steps. Briefly; you want to go to commons:Article and recreate the gallery there, and then link to the Commons gallery using {{Commons}}. If the images are stored locally here at en:, you'll need to upload them to Commons first. While this may sound like extra effort, Wikimedia Commons has the advantage of allowing every project to use the media stored there, and is increasing.ly set up to handle searching and rendering media more efficiently than any of the text-based projects. Unfortunately, I'm remarkably busy at the moment; otherwise I'd pitch in and help with the particular article in question. You could ask the person who tagged the article to lend a hand if there are a lot of images to move over or if the process is confusing. Jkelly 16:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for uploading Image:Monica B 2.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI 22:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

It seems that some of the other editors have ceased any discussion and are blindly reverting any edit that I add. They have formed some kind of a cartel. I think this is counterproductive for the article. I am open to discussing the edits. Ramdrake has indicated that he has retired from wikipedia and so has Jeeny, so I think you are the only neutral editor who is left.Muntuwandi 23:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hi. (1) I agree with you about no quid pro quo, taking each article on its own terms. (2) I do not believe that anything I wrote on the Talk:White people page (or any page) has ever implied that I think an article should be perfect. I doubt that that is possible, and the very fact that this is Wikipedia means that all articles are always works in progress. That means that no article is ever "finished" so obviously no article will ever be perfect. But the fact that every article is constantly being worked on/in progress should mean that every article is betting better and that was all my comments were meant to address: ways to make the article better. However, if you are speaking purely of standards, of ideals, I do think that our standards should be very high. What makes Wikipedia different from Encyclopedia Brittanica is what makes a free-enterprise economy better than a planned (and centrally regulated) economy: an economy in which everyone is free and competing to be better will lead to superior products. It is also the idea behind open-source software like Linnux versus somthing like Microsoft: thousands of people working freely and constantly trying to make something better will do a better job than a hundred engineers following some manager's directive. But whether you believe in open-source or Microsoft; a free-enterprise system or communism, surely people's goals are the same: to create something better. I would hate it if engineers at Boein thought that it didn't matter if their work wasn't "perfect" - what would happen to the American air industry (and, would I be willing to fly)? We expect the people who make our cars and computers to do the best they can; we expect the best possible product affordable. We shouldn't settle for anything less here. Wikipedia articles are very often among the first five or ten google hits for any topic; it is becoming an internationally recognized brand like Toyota or Sony; hundreds of thousands if not millions of people turn to it for knowledge. We shoulld give them the best we can. And: I really sincerely do not believe that several editors taking time to read books in a library or look through journal articles is at all onerous. It takes time and effort but still nothing compared to the effort that goes into most goods that are in high demand! It is a sad day for America (or England or wherever most editors are from) when people who want to write encyclopedia articles thinks reading book or journal article is just too much work! America ought to have the best education system in the world, not be second-rate or strive for mediocrity ... editors of Wikipedia (I think most are American) should reflect that, I think ... Slrubenstein | Talk 23:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some are from the "Dark continent". Jolie had facial reconstruction? I don't really mind about removing her from the picture, until maybe a suitable replacement is found. Muntuwandi 03:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, you have been listed as a potential participant in an informal mediation regarding a dispute over White people. The case page is listed at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-08-19_White_people. I am looking over the case, and am willing to offer my assistance in this. If you are willing to participate in the mediation and willing to accept my offer to mediate, please let me know. Thank you, Neranei (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kevin, I saw your posts and wanted to comment to you that just because someone is an administrator is not a good enough reason to be a qualified mediator. A lot of admins are very young -- not that there's anything wrong with that. I do agree with you that someone who is to mediate this situation have a broader life experience, and knowledge of WP policies. Another thing, I think it's better to NOT have an admin to act as mediator for they have other issues to deal with, blocking, moving, vandals, etc. Mediation groups, or members, are supposed to know how to mediate and know certain WP policies for content disputes. There should be full concentration on the case, without the other duties that admins have to deal with. JMO. See what I posted on the mediation project page for more on my opinion on this issue. Thanks! - Jeeny ^Talk 20:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Where was this discussion held? I'd like to take a look. --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll check the 3O archives perhaps, or ask Jeeny. --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help on Westwood, Ohio! Yobbo14 01:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as per your request on the ROC talk page, I'll describe my views to you on trivia in general. I guess that's what you're asking for.

I got sucked into the issue months ago here when I saw an editor wipe out some fairly interesting material with an edit summary "removed trivia as per WP:TRIVIA". I reverted him, and pointed out that the guideline said "integrate, don't delete", but he was just dead set on getting rid of it, like too many other editors are.

I started studying the situation and saw how many editors deleted trivia left and right claiming the guideline supported them. And plenty more who deleted without bothering to say anything. A month later when Android Mouse Bot added {{trivia}} to thousands of articles, there was an upswell of support for trivia, and I tried to get WP:TRIVIA de-frocked, but was unsuccessful. I retrenched to just trying to change the line "Some trivia is especially tangential or irrelevant, and may not warrant inclusion at all." since it's an open-ended loophole: "integrate trivia", it says, "but delete anything irrelevant"... which is the entire trivia section, to some editors.

Although I got a few supporters in trying to change the wording (one of whom was Coppertwig), the deletionists watching the page wouldn't even tolerate even the addition of the line "However, Wikipedia has no standard for relevance." So I changed my focus and started work on the Relevance guideline. And yes, it does have to be a guideline, or else people won't let WP:TRIVIA defer to it on matters of relevance.

I actually support the overall thrust of WP:TRIVIA -- trivia lists are a crappy way to present information. But again, that bloody loophole is intolerable. And the deletion of trivia is in some ways worse than the deletion of complete articles, because the latter are at least subject to a debate (WP:AFD), but content can be deleted without any sign that it was ever there, unless you happen to have been watching the article.

What I've been trying to do here is assemble a reasonable standard on content that walks the middle line. Trivia shouldn't be an excuse for articles get disorganized, but I want to retain all content that can plausibly be shown to have some value, and give clearer ideas on how to integrate it, since WP:TRIVIA is very unspecific about how to accomplish that.

Those are my views on trivia, relevance, and on content in general. And those are my goals for the proposal as well. Equazcion is an "inclusionist", as am I, as are you, WikiLen, Coppertwig, and DGG. Of those who have expressed opposition to the proposal, only DGG has been willing to explain his objections and help strengthen the proposal's inclusionist foundations -- for instance, by spurring this edit: [3]. The proposal still needs plenty of work in the "content" section, but the more people contribute, the more likely we can find the right ways to say things. We also need to include more language in defense of lists and list articles; they've been taking a pounding lately.

Like you, I'm wary of using examples; I tore almost all of them out after the first draft. The proposal won't work unless we can get it to say straightforward, sensible things in a general way, and I was trying to fix those remaining faults when you and WikiLen drove up in a hearse.

There is a chance here to strengthen Wikipedia's inclusiveness, and I hope, I just beg, that we can get past our differences -- or is it just a misunderstanding? I've never understood why you've objected to the proposal, especially when you've said complimentary things about it in the same breath.--Father Goose 05:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I don't know if you watchlist other people's talk pages, but I replied to your latest message on my page there.--Father Goose 04:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Kevin, I just wanted to let you know that, as a part of informal mediation, I have asked everyone involved to make a statement. Would you mind making a statement at the article's talk page? Thanks, Neranei (talk) 13:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I didn't mean to step on anyones toes. I can't agree to having some obscure manager of a multinational corporation as being representative of Welsh people though. I am Welsh and this person is totally unknown to me. There are certainly far better examples of Welsh people out there. How did such an obscure individual manage to get by such a vetting process I wonder. I'd suggest Tom Jones, Griff Rhys Jones or Catherine Zeta Jones as far more appropriate. I'll have a think about it and make a suggestion on the talk page. Thanks for the message. Alun 17:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I put that picture up. I've been critisized for ahving too many politicians, I couldn't find a good picture of Tom Jones and Catherine is so heavilly identified as being hispanic at least in the US -- does she really typify a Welsh heritage? It seems to be damned any way you slice it. --Kevin Murray 17:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't understand how Catherine Zeta Jones could be identified as Hispanic, it doesn't make sense to me. She's totally Welsh. She's from Swansea and became famous in the UK for acting in The Darling Buds of May on the telly. Take a look at her wikipedia entry. She also has an image on wikipedia that is copyright but states that it may be used if it is attributed, see Image:Zeta Jones.jpg Tom Jones also has an image on the commons Image:Tom Jones 2005.jpg and any commons images may be used. Griff Rhys Jones also has a commons image Image:Griff Rhys Jones IOW cropped.jpg but he's probably not that notable outside of the UK. While the current Welsh person represented is clearly notable he is not very recognisable, even to his fellow countrymen. I don't want to fight over this so if you feel that it's good to represent people other than politicians and celebrities then I can understand this. Sorry if I cane over as brusque earlier, it was not my intent. All the best. Alun 17:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ok, sorry for the delay in replying! Untagg it them. Cheers. The Ogre 17:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try. Soon, I promise. The Ogre 17:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever, you know what I meant. The idea is stupid. IvoShandor 18:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am posting this in reference to your post on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). I have trying to get this serious issue across for along time now, but no one seems to be interested. May be instead of bundling those lists in I should go list by list and get them deleted. After the first few debates it would not be difficult to figure out most, if not all, the keep arguments, as well as the counter-argument. But, I guess that would go against WP:POINT. Well, after seeing somuch ignorance, while this silly lists proliferate, I'd rather igonre that policy and concentrate more on WP:BOLD. Please, advise. I am posting part of this to the policy discussion page as well. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 23:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed on the village pump last week, I'm starting to move essays to people's userspace if they haven't been edited by others (not counting typo fixes etc). Since there's a lot of pages in CAT:E, I'd appreciate some help. Other people suggested deleting some of the worse essays, or adding {{merge}} tags as appropriate; I'll leave that up to people's discretion. >Radiant< 11:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi KM,

I saw your question about galleries at the Village Pump and I agree with your position completely. I've added some galleries to articles myself, both pictures I've taken and lots of old postcard pictures I happened to find on eBay's Web site (see Jamestown, New York for example). I'm pretty sure, but not absolutely sure, that I'm improving articles with these, but I'd be opposed to any kind of a ban on gallery sections to articles. If you ever run into any conflicts over inclusion of a gallery section in an article, please feel free to ask me to join in forming a consensus, and if I'm not extremely busy, I'll try to help. I can't guarantee I'll agree with anything, of course, but I'm generally pro-gallery.

I've been hesitant to upload images to WikiCommons, where the concept of gallery pages won't be a problem, because the stated purpose of that site is to share pictures. The old postcard pics I tend to upload (along with the pictures I'm beginning to take) tend to be for locality articles (South Norwalk for instance). I don't expect that most of these pics would ever be wanted outside of Wikipedia. That makes me worry that WikiCommons might decide to delete them someday. If you have any opinons on that, I'd love to hear read them. Noroton 03:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the Wikipedia:Relevance page, and assorted discussion? Hm, I'd have to read up on some things there, I hadn't been following that debate. >Radiant< 14:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should take advantage of present changed circumstances to readdress the split of the article if this is what you want. As a european (who incidentally frequently visits UCB) I find it in excruciatingly bad taste and quite unscientific. The separation into two different articles as Slrubenstein has suggested could solve many of these problems and produce good and instructive articles into the bargain. Cheers, Mathsci 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I ought to have been more clear about my own standpoint. My comments on Wikipedia talk:Avoid trivia sections were meant to illustrate the problems or inaccurate impressions which arise when the expectations or notions inexperienced editors butt up against established policies and guidelines. Sometimes where such a conflict occurs, the response from such an editor is along the lines of, "I think Wikipedia should work in this particular way, but the long-established guideline/policy says it ought to be that way. The policy needs to be fixed, so that it conforms to my view of what Wikipedia ought to be."

The solution to this problem isn't to make it easier or faster to adopt, repeal, or modify Wikipedia guidelines or policies. Rather, it is to continue to provide assistance and guidance to new editors to help explain why many of our policies are the way that they are. It may be appropriate to include more reasoning and explanation in the bodies of some Wikipedia policy documents. It could be helpful to assist these users in finding resources like the Help Desk or the Village Pump.

On relatively rare occasions, a policy or guideline may require massive overhaul or repeal. In general, our systems work passably well under such circumstances. As a rule of thumb, the larger the effect of a proposed change, the wider the consultation required to assess community sentiment and to be able to make a change 'stick'. For something like repealing a guideline (on Trivia, say) that would affect thousands of articles, very broad discussion would be required—and such a suggestion is unlikely to succeed. Help:Modifying and creating policy is a good primer for editors interested in making policy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Relevance of content/Content policy analysis: let's try to synchronize our views on this subject so that our continuing work on it can be more effective.--Father Goose 23:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I take it you have seen the history of this issue? The older version kept getting tested because it isn't clearly written. The newer version remained in place for six weeks, stable and uncontested. Radiant moved it back to the much older language, including, e.g., "Essays tend to be opinionated." Well, yes, but this is not a definition. Anyway, obviously it is in need of discussion. Discussion is also at Wikipedia_talk:Policies_and_guidelines#Problem_with_wording ... Kenosis 20:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know of many templates that are designated as policies or guidelines :) The intended role of this template that you created (please correct me if I'm wrong) is to mark the designation of a Wikipedia page as disputed; however, this function is already covered by {{disputedtag}}. Would you mind if I redirected your template one to the other one, or if you WP:CSD#G7'd it? If there's something I'm missing about the role of this template, though, please fill me in! Happy editing, Gracenotes^T § 03:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I've placed some musings on the POL talk page. I believe I'm in favor of either heavily rewording the essay bit, or getting rid of it entirely. >Radiant< 09:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

	In the area? You're invited to
	San Francisco Meetup 3
	Date: September 16th, 2007
	Place: Yerba Buena Gardens, 3pm
	San Francisco Meetup 2

-- phoebe/(talk) 07:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for uploading Image:Laminate sails.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Wikipedia:Image use policy
• Wikipedia:Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 22:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This can be interpreted in several ways, hence the request for elucidation. :-) --Kim Bruning 03:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need to answer, but I've seen that you've edited Westwood, Ohio. I would like to know if you know much about the area? Thanks. - Jeeny ^Talk 04:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My reply on my talk page. Cheers. HuskyHuskie 20:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should have used clearer wording: the mass merge proposal appears to be rejected, so there's no point to putting up merge tags. If you want to readd them, then fine, I won't revert it, but I think the discussion has shifted away from merging into just editing them to be more concise and perhaps merging one or two of them individually. --tjstrf talk 00:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! I would appreciate your opinion on the following two issues. First, whether it's a good idea to word Template:Style-guideline similar to the other guideline templates (e.g. Template:Subcat guideline). And second, whether this suggested addendum to the style guidelines should be considered a proposal or an essay. Cheers, >Radiant< 10:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]