Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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WikiProject Film (Rated Project-class)
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Criteria for awards in accolade lists?[edit]

This got me wondering: Are there criteria for awards to include in lists of accolades? "The awards that (or whose givers) meet WP:N", as mentioned in the common selection criteria for stand-alone lists, may be a good place to start, but just because an award is notable doesn't mean it has any real prestige. The Hollywood Film Awards, for example, seem more like an excuse to invite celebrities and give studios opportunities to promote their films than legitimate awards with voters with certain qualifications, as they are often given to films no one has seen yet, but they pass WP:N exactly for the coverage of this dubiousness (and there are worse awards, which have crept into articles).

So I'm inclined to say the accolades must be verified by reliable third-party sources to be included, but I also take the point that such criteria would exclude lesser-known but rather respected/transparent awards like ones given by critic circles. Are there past discussions/consensus on this? Nardog (talk) 08:30, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Nardog - yes there is. Per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film#Accolades which contains the text "Awards included in lists should have a Wikipedia article to demonstrate notability". Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:14, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
@Lugnuts: Thanks! I had seen it but it slipped my mind. But I don't think it really address the question I had, which is: Does an award having its own article guarantee its inclusion in lists of accolades? Only festival awards are explicitly said to be subject to consensus in the MoS, but like the Hollywood Film Awards and National Film & TV Awards, dubious awards aren't limited to festivals.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to add something akin to WP:ONUS (with "information" and "verifiable" replaced by "awards" and "notable", respectively) to the MoS, or perhaps to deprecate (or require third-party sources for) certain awards à la WP:RSP. Nardog (talk) 14:05, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I think sometimes the individual awards page are of dubious notability, or they've been created by someone who's trying to promote them on WP. There have been lots of examples in the past (one, two, three) where they have been deleted. If there's a specfic award/festival that you don't think is notable, then I'd take it to AfD and see how that goes. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
@Lugnuts: Again, just because an award is notable doesn't necessarily mean it's credible. Look, for example, at last year's nominees for the National Film & TV Awards, which passed the AfD a couple years ago and are voted by the public (allegedly), and notice the inconsistency in the number of nominees in each category and the idiosyncrasies like Alita: Battle Angel and a straight-to-video film nominated among Toy Story [sic!], Frozen 2, and How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World. And should we really list the Hollywood Film Award alongside the likes of the Oscars and Césars in List of accolades received by Django Unchained with no caveat when it was given when no one had seen the film? I find the current MoS inadequate in this regard. Nardog (talk) 11:14, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree with what you're saying. I think that requiring notability is relatively straightforward baseline. Beyond that, I'm not sure of good criteria to apply on a broad scope. There are numerous awards organizations with varying degrees of relevance and credibility. Are you suggesting to ban these specific instances you highlighted, or something else? Another guideline approach could be acknowledging the notability requirement as a baseline and that editors may exclude other awards based on credibility issues. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 12:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
@Erik: I agree notability should be the minimum, but not the only, requirement, which is already the case AFAICT. Like I said, I wonder if it would be a good idea to add something akin to WP:ONUS (with "information" and "verifiable" replaced by "awards" and "notable", respectively) to the MoS, or perhaps to deprecate (or require third-party sources for) certain awards à la WP:RSP. Now that I think about it, the first idea is already covered by WP:ONUS itself, so it's probably not a good idea in view of WP:CREEP. So I'm currently leaning toward the second idea. Nardog (talk) 12:58, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Or we can clarify notability isn't the only requirement and expand the consensus subjection to all awards, not just festivals. Particularly dubious awards may in addition be deprecated altogether in a centralized forum like here, perhaps through RfCs. Nardog (talk) 13:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
The deprecation à la WP:RSP sounds like a good idea. El Millo (talk) 18:14, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Box office taskforce[edit]

As some of you may be aware there have been major problems with data corruption on Box Office Mojo. We are currently in the process of getting it sorted. However, the problem has been tackled on multiple pages which isn't ideal. It appears that the work to fix BOM may be ongoing so I am thinking about setting up a film finance task force with the immediate priority of fixing the box-office data. Initially its main aim would be to centralise the problems and liaise with BOM. However, we have multiple box-office articles (in addition to the info included at general film articles) now and editors who exclusively work on these articles so over time it would perhaps become a more traditional task force. I would like to get some feedback on the idea i.e. editors who would perhaps be interested in signing up, anyone who thinks this is a crappy idea etc? Betty Logan (talk) 21:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd be up for it. El Millo (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Not a terrible idea at all! I used to be more involved in those types of articles, but would be willing to help more now. BOVINEBOY2008 19:17, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Although not an area of films that I spend any time on, I think this is a great idea, esp. with the current situation with BOM. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I've gotten more and more focused in data gathering on here rather than focusing on prose, so this would be very up my alley. Sock (tock talk) 23:10, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
While I do not focus largely as some do on box office content, I've been viewing from afar the issues everyone has been having with BOM, and support the creation of a taskforce for those who wish to work through the issues (and I may pop by now and again for a few helpful edits). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:03, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I think we have enough takers to make it viable so I will set it up this weekend. Betty Logan (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo, Bovineboy2008, Lugnuts, Sock, and Favre1fan93: The task force is up and running at WP:WikiProject Film/Film finance task force. At the moment it is bare bones. I will finish it off over the weekend and then talk to BOM again. Betty Logan (talk) 20:13, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

More film accolade lists additions[edit]

HumanxAnthro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) who joined the project this year has been busy adding "best of" "worst of" etc items to the accolade sections of film articles from a wide variety of sources. Here is but one example. They seem to bump into the guidelines WP:FILMCRITICLIST and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. The thing that needs input is the fact that - while they are not mentioning specific festivals - which if they don't have articles should not be included - the items are from newspaper critics from cities large and small. Heaven knows I am not trying to disparage any of these cities or their surviving papers but a list like this Quiz Show (film)#Year-end lists is IMO hardly encyclopedic and highly indiscriminate. But that is just my view on it and any and all input from others will be appreciated. MarnetteD|Talk 23:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think this is another case of a well-intentioned editor deciding they have an idea to improve film articles, and striking off on their own without checking with anyone to see whether their idea is a good one first.
That aside, there's some room for me to be persuaded regarding the "best of" lists, but I'm currently significantly opposed to adding the "worst of" lists because I find those incredibly non-notable. DonIago (talk) 03:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for informing me about this discussion. The problem is that rationales are heavily dependent on personal opinion, "IMO hardly encyclopedic and highly indiscriminate," even with policy brought up. Nothing about WP:INDISCRIMINATE suggests recognition from professional critics working for reputable sources falls into that category. Also, please have a less nebulous explanation than "I find those incredibly non-notable." Parts of an article don't have to be "notable," only the subject of an entire article has to be. And how in the world are "worst" positions less important than "best" positions? HumanxAnthro (talk) 05:25, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Let me ask. Is 12 Years a Slave (film)#Accolades and Milk (2008 American film)#Accolades, indiscriminate to you? Are chart positions for popular albums and songs indiscriminate to you? HumanxAnthro (talk) 06:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Looks like a lot of list cruft to me. I am pretty sure it is not necessary to name every critic. Why would readers seeking general background info on the film need to know Sandi Davis thought it was the 3rd best film of the year? I would suggest name-checking the big names (Ebert, Siskel, Travers etc) and maybe the critics who had it top and perhaps just summarising the rest. Betty Logan (talk) 08:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
"Why would readers seeking general background info on the film need to know Sandi Davis thought it was the 3rd best film of the year?" (1) This is a WP:WHOCARES argument. (2) How do you know all readers are not gonna care about rankings by professional critics? We can't exactly read people's minds, you know. (3) "I am pretty sure it is not necessary to name every critic." Doesn't mean it's list-crufty to do so. HumanxAnthro (talk) 09:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
We have considered it indiscriminate listing per WP:FILMCRITICLIST, "Do not add critics' top-ten lists on which a film appears, except on a case-by-case basis subject to consensus." So an example like 12 Years a Slave needs to have its list summarized. It's easy to do, to say that the film was on x top-ten lists, with y ranking it first, and z ranking it second, that kind of thing. Furthermore, I find there to be a difference between an awards organization and a newspaper. As a baseline, an awards organization needs to be blue-linked to establish some notability, and there is often more film-related content beyond that link. That's not the case with linking to film critics or their regional or local newspaper. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
You know these same newspapers (and even some of the critics) are also blue-linked, indicating they're notable institutions, right? HumanxAnthro (talk) 14:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I am aware of that. But these newspapers do not have more of the same kind of content. The links are just about them being newspapers. Awards organizations show the awards for other years as well as related awards. As for film critics, I see a stronger case possible, but it's not like a reader will find out what else the film critic has recognized as best or worst on the critics' articles. It's just their biography. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 22:06, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
"these newspapers do not have more of the same kind of content. The links are just about them being newspapers." So what? It's notable enough to get a Wikipedia. That's what matters. "it's not like a reader will find out what else the film critic has recognized as best or worst on the critics' articles." Another WP:WHOCARES argument. How do you know? Can you read readers' mind? HumanxAnthro (talk) 10:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
The existence of a topic or an article does not mean links should be spread indiscriminately across Wikipedia. Consensus among editors can determine what is indiscriminate and overlinking. By your logic, we should be listing every single review for a film in a film's article and link to the critic's name and its periodical, because either the critic or the periodical is "notable enough". There is such thing as too much useless information. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:20, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Not sure what value (if any) these year-end lists have. Reminds me of that time one user was adding all those random AFI lists to articles. If these year-end factoids are that important, maybe write some prose instead. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:56, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
If you can't see any value in these lists, I don't know what to tell you; it's like not seeing value in Billboard chart positions for songs and albums. They're significant rankings from professional critics of notable newspapers, indicating that they're the highest or lowest quality of a year. Also, that user you mentioned is perfectly justified in adding those AFI lists, as the American Film Institute is a significant, notable organization. HumanxAnthro (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Some of the ones present at 12 Years a Slave are clearly non-notable, like James Rocchi, Cinephiled, David Ehrlich, Film.com, and Andrew Saladino, NothingButFilm. These shouldn't even be included if we were to say in how many lists it was featured. Regarding the rest, I'm more inclined to having a summary and just listing the most relevant ones. We could start by only including those where both the person and the work are blue-linked, plus a few that are clearly most notable, like Variety. El Millo (talk) 18:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
So The Buffalo News, Knoxville News Sentinel, The Birmingham News, The Rocky Mountain News, The Oklahoman, Dayton Daily News, The Cincinnati Post, Staten Island Advance, The Salt Lake Tribune, The Munster Times, and The Atlanta Journal-Constitution is as notable as Film.com to you? HumanxAnthro (talk) 11:07, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
No. Saying that these aren't the most notable of the lot doesn't make them equal between one another. Let's say you have a ranking of films, both the 11th best and the 50th best aren't included in the top 10, but that doesn't make them equals. El Millo (talk) 20:16, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
OK... I actually thought you were arguing the sources I just mentioned were non-notable enough to be removed, like Film.com lists, because MarnetteD said lists featuring ranks from those publications were indiscriminate. HumanxAnthro (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
I am in favor of removing them. What I said is that removing them doesn't mean they're equal to Film.com, which should be disregarded completely. What I said is that I'm more inclined to having a summary and just listing the most relevant ones. Say "12 Years a Slave was included in X number of best-of lists", then name just a few of the most notable ones, like Variety, The New York Times, etc. As I said already: We could start by only including those where both the person and the work are blue-linked, plus a few that are clearly most notable, like Variety. El Millo (talk) 21:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
I willing to go along with this, but I need to ask. What if all of the film's rankings are only from those newspapers that aren't Roger-Ebert levels of known? HumanxAnthro (talk) 09:58, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I guess we would see really how notable they all are, then name the most notable among those. El Millo (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Mental disorders in film at AfD[edit]

Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Second opinion on ex. links[edit]

Hi. Please could someone take a look at the external links on Omerta (2017 film). I think they're spam, but I could be wrong. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to the Variety archives?[edit]

Per above. It's like 60 dollars a month, Reliable Sources noticeboard has let me down. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 10:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Internet Archive has the pre-1960 period pretty well covered: https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A"Variety". Universities often have subscriptions so there may be some students who have access to later years through their university libraries. Betty Logan (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have clarified, I need 80s ones. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 10:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

African film question[edit]

I've just started a stub article about the film Night of the Kings (La Nuit des rois), which is premiering at Venice in September and then being screened at TIFF a couple of weeks later. However, I'm having a bit of trouble sourcing information about the cast, so I just wanted to ask if anybody can help out.

The issue is that the cast includes actors named Bakary Koné and Laetitia Ky — however, I have been unable to find any sources which would clarify whether or not these are the same Bakary Koné (a footballer) and Laetitia Ky (an artist) that we already have articles about. One of the sources does indicate that this is Koné's first-ever acting role, so it seems plausible that it could indeed be the footballer — but without a source that explicitly says it's the footballer, I can't simply assume that. And the artist, similarly, seems plausible, but is not confirmed; her article also provides no indication that she's ever worked as an actress before either, and it's also listed as her first-ever acting role according to IMDb.

Accordingly, I've left both of their names unlinked in the article, pending verification of whether they're the same people or not, but I wanted to ask if anybody can help to locate the verification that's eluding me. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 20:16, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Both those articles have images, do they look like the same people? Kingsif (talk) 00:17, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Questions on Plot section[edit]

Hi there! I am planning to write the Plot section for the film Black Is King and I had a few questions:

1. The characters in the film do not have names. What would be the best way to write the summary? I feel like it would be confusing to write "the man", "the first woman", "the second woman", etc, so I was wondering if anyone had any ideas?

2. The Manual of Style states that in complex plots, "describe the events on screen as simply as possible in the plot summary and report interpretations in another section of the article." What section would one report those interpretations in?

3. The film is a "visual album" with the 14 songs from The Lion King: The Gift receiving visual counterparts. Unlike in musicals, most of the visuals for the songs are more conventional music videos, with varying levels of connection to the plot. Should what happens in these music videos be relayed in the Plot section (eg. one video takes place as a dream of the protagonist. Should the details of the dream be added to the section)? Also, should the song names be mentioned in the Plot section?

Thank you so much! Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:20, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Films with a traditional, linear narrative (ie, not an art-house film, like Holy Motors) will often give you nicknames or descriptive labels that you can use (such as "Cigarette Smoking Man" or "Man in Black"). For something like Holy Motors, the best you can really do is describe what happens and hope for the best – though it's an excellent film. If you've got sourced commentary, you can create a separate section for "themes" or "interpretations". A Nightmare on Elm Street 2: Freddy's Revenge is famous among horror fans for including a massive amount of gay subtext, which is discussed in the article. Other films, such as Enter the Void, include a short paragraph that describes the director's thoughts. Lost Highway (film) includes some critics' interpretations. As far as what to include: it's up to you, really. Try to keep it under 700 words. That means summarizing the plot, not summarizing each individual scene in sequence. If you do that, the plot will balloon to 1000 words, guaranteed. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:54, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
@NinjaRobotPirate: Amazing thanks so much! And those articles look great :) Bgkc4444 (talk) 13:49, 3 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Film finance task force[edit]

A task force has been established at Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Film finance task force to tackle the ongoing problems with Box Office Mojo. Correcting the data in Box Office Mojo is our priority at the moment given our dependency on the site, but the ultimate goal is for the task force to take a more traditional role.

The biggest problem with BOM is the "double counting" of grosses when a film is re-released. I have started compiling the errors in a table at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Film_finance_task_force#Box_Office_Mojo. The errors are very random and it is a bit like searching for a needle in a haystack, but if you have noticed any sudden/unexplained changes to box-office grosses then you need to check the reissue grosses and see if they are including earlier grosses in the reissue (and thus counting them twice). You can find examples of this at the task force page. If you find any errors please add them to the table. If you need any help with the formatting please ask at the task force talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 13:29, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Page move for List of films using the F-word[edit]

Hi. Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Use of YouTube external links in soundtrack sections[edit]

Do we have a reason for including YouTube links in the soundtrack infobox in a film article? (For example [1] and [2]) In my view, this is not adding anything beneficial to the reader, they do not learn any new information by clicking on the link. Per WP:ELNO, we should not be including them. Thoughts? BOVINEBOY2008 19:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Bovineboy2008, Agreed that they should not be included. We're not a link directory and everyone knows that YouTube exists. ―Justin (koavf)TCM 08:54, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
How is hearing the song not learn[ing] any new information? Also per WP:ELNO it says at the top Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject. If the YouTube link is an official page, then that link should stay as it indeed provides a great value to any reader. --Gonnym (talk) 10:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
First, Template:External media is normally used for the main body of the article; infoboxes use Template:Audio sample and external links to YouTube use Template:YouTube. Second, are these copyright compliant? Entire soundtrack albums for one-year old films are usually not completely free. If legit, they would be better in the "External links" sections, since the songs are not discussed in any meaningful way in the text (just listed, no context). —Ojorojo (talk) 14:44, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I'd question how they were included on the WP page itself, but given that the YT videos are posted by the label that owns the music copyright and those are verified accounts, there's nothing wrong with included them (eg at best, there's no WP:ELNO violation) This would be similar to including the link to an official music video by the rights'-holder on a music video page. It is an uncommon practice but these also appear to be only backing tracks (didn't listen to but a few seconds) so maybe they're less worried on copytheft there. --Masem (t) 14:59, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Agree with the above. If it's the official media, I don't see a problem with including it. If it's a random upload, it most definitely should not. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:31, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

So as long as the link is to the studio/companies official YouTube, it would be okay for inclusion? This would give me trepidation for other kinds links could be included (teaser clips of the film, trailers, behind the scene interviews, full clips of the film) that I think we have generally not included, especially when we have generally argued that if something is available through the official website, then we don't need to include an extra link. BOVINEBOY2008 22:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

American Movie Awards at AfD[edit]

Hi. On doing a bit of work on Apocalypse Now, I came across the American Movie Awards, and have nominated it for deletion. Any input on this would be appreciated. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

How do I request help to Improve specific pages[edit]

Hello. I am fairly new to wikipedia. I am looking for help improving the pages for The Tree of Life, Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice, and Happy as Lazzaro. Where would I go to get that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pineapple4321 (talkcontribs) 18:43, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Pineapple4321: First of all, welcome! Always glad to have a new contributor around. To answer your question, I frequently encouraging just adding the improvements you want to add to the best of your ability. That said, I understand if you're not sure about how to go about that, so I would also encourage you to visit the talk pages of those specific articles and request help with the improvements and changes you want to make amongst other editors. For example, if you thought the plot section of one of them was especially long or the "Reception" section was poorly formatted, perhaps you could create a new discussion revolving what could be removed or changed. Plenty of editors have film articles on their watchlist (I myself have both BvS and Tree of Life on my watchlist), and you can always ask for specific help with your improvements right here. Sock (tock talk) 19:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Kahi Debe Sandesh has just been moved to Article space[edit]

Please will a project member experienced in this genre take a look and determine whetehr it ought to be an article? Fiddle Faddle 09:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Anything unusual?[edit]

Anyone see anything unusual in this guy's filmography? Bet you can't find it unless you have an eagle eye! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm going bleary and blurry eyed looking at it Cyphoidbomb :-P Is there any award that he didn't win? MarnetteD|Talk 21:48, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
You found it! You have an eagle eye! 👁️<👁️ Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
It seems to be the work of an single-purpose account. El Millo (talk) 21:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)