Talk:Haitian Vodou

Haitian Vodou is currently a Philosophy and religion good article nominee. Nominated by Midnightblueowl (talk) at 17:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria. Further reviews are welcome from any editor who has not contributed significantly to this article (or nominated it), and can be added to the review page, but the decision whether or not to list the article as a good article should be left to the first reviewer. Short description: Syncretic religion practised chiefly in Haiti and among the Haitian diaspora

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Explain this better pls cause i was curious if voodoo dolls are real or do they work none of this explains it i dont wanna know when they were invented or stuff you lied about your thumbnail:( 2601:204:300:8940:BCAD:C9D2:FB2C:B6F3 (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See Voodoo doll. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vodou dolls are a symbol of health and care and not those clickabait videos where you can "curse" somebody. 45.58.90.197 (talk) 02:20, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Haitian Vodou/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vaticidalprophet (talk · contribs) 04:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've been looking at this article for a while with an eye to reviewing it. I can't guarantee the most prompt review -- it's a long article (over 500 individual references!) and I'm finishing up another GAN at the moment -- but I didn't want to see it sit too much longer. It's excellent, fascinating work.

A couple of comments on the lead, pending a more comprehensive combthrough later:

• Is there a reason to include IPA for variant spellings in the footnote, but not for the primary spelling in flowing text?

• There's no reason for it's omission, I can add the IPA in. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• The lead image is very detailed, but displayed at default size -- using the upright= parameter might help with seeing/understanding/accessibility.

• I looked at changing default image size for "upright=200px" and then "upright=300px" but it does not seem to make any difference from the standard default size, at least in my browser, so I've left it as the former. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The upright parameter takes a scaling factor (like 1.2 or 1.35), rather than a an absolute size in px. The upright parameter is recommended as it gels well with accessibly software. Absolute sizes don't. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The oungan and manbo links are piped to variant spellings, but both articles seem to be titled at the same spellings used here.

• Well spotted; I've corrected this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vaticidalprophet 04:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking this review on, Vaticidalprophet. No rush in getting it finished. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not reviewing this nomination, however I did give it a brief read, the only issue I see as far as I can tell is one of your references (Author: Cosentino), is not cited in the article making an error page pop up next to the bibiography portion.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC) @Vaticidalprophet: Hoping that things are well with you. Did you have any further comments about this article at the present time? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Argh -- sorry for not getting back to you. I've been very occupied offwiki for a few weeks, just when I was going to start looking seriously at this. It might be better to put this back in the queue, but I might be able to pick it back up at some point. Vaticidalprophet 20:06, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaticidalprophet: - Apologies for the delay in my response, I've not been active on Wikipedia lately either. If you feel that you cannot finish the review, that's no problem; could you ask for a "second opinion" review, perhaps? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Midnightblueowl I would be interested in taking this over; however, it technically does not seem to be a "Second opinion" (which would still require the original reviewer to promote or fail), but rather an "abandoned review" (see WP:GAN/I#N4a)? Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jens Lallensack: It would be great if you could take it on. I think you're right about this being more of an "abandoned review" than a "second opinion", so I'll set it up accordingly. Looking forward to your comments, if you get the time! Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to raise concerns about this addition by an IP user, which I reverted as per WP:BRD, but which was then re-instated by User:Skyerise. The added sentence cites a book, Mambo Chita Tann's Haitian Vodou: An Introduction to Haiti's Indigenous Spiritual Tradition, that has been published by Llewellyn Worldwide, an esoteric/New Age publisher catering to a general audience. It is not published by an academic press, nor is it written by an academic. Given that we have a wealth of scholarly sources about Haitian Vodou available to us, I am not convinced that we need to use a Llewellyn book as a source, which, although not wholly unreliable, certainly wouldn't constitute the highest quality Reliable Source.

On a secondary level, the added sentence does not properly belong where it has been placed; it discusses the consumption of alcohol as a means of facilitating spirit possession, but has been sandwiched between existing sentences talking about offerings to the spirits, a slightly different topic. I would strongly recommend removing this addition and see no compelling reason for its retention. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Find the better source and move the fact somewhere it fits better. I'm sure it's both factual and citable though, so {{better source needed}} would be a better response then complete removal. Skyerise (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a fair enough, Skyerise. I'll have a dive into the academic literature and see if I can find a better source. Have a good week. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Keep up the good work! Skyerise (talk) 11:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Haitian Vodou/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 17:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 11:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This classificatory system derives from the way in which enslaved Africans were divided into "nations" upon their arrival in Haiti, usually based on their African port of departure rather than their ethno-cultural identity. – Optional, but it would be nice to have some further explanation here. Why does the classificatory system derive from these "nations"? Because each of these nations developed their own iwa independently?
  • I'm not sure if it known exactly how these theological nanchon came together in Haiti. Obviously, Vodou developed in a largely non-literate environment, so we don't have historical records demonstrating how it developed in the early decades. It's possibly that Benjamin Hebblethwaite's new book deals with the situation, but I haven't had a chance to read that yet. When I do, I'll see if there's anything relevant on the formation of the nanchon to include in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In Petwo rites, the first lwa invoked is usually Mèt Kalfou. The second lwa usually greeted are the Marasa or sacred twins – Would be nice to introduce these Iwas a bit instead of just throwing the name; what are their functions?
  • I haven't been able to find much about Mèt Kalfou in the academic literature. Generally, there is a dearth of studies dealing with practitioners engaging with the Petwo nanchon; the vast majority of scholars writing on Vodou have instead looked primarily at those working with the Rada nanchon. (There's a similar situation when it comes to Afro-Cuban religions; lots of studies dealing with the Yoruba-derived Santería and far fewer on the Kongo-derived Palo). Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• every nanchon has its own Marasa,[111] reflecting a belief that twins have special powers.[112] Agwe, also known as Agwe-taroyo, – Is Agwe a Marasa? Comes a bit out of the blue here, maybe reformulate to make clear if you are continuing discussing Marasa or if Agwe is something else.
  • Agwe isn't a Marasa, so I've tried to make that clear by rewording to the following: "Another important lwa is Agwe,[...]". Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It follows a list of Iwa, but this seems a bit chaotic; based on which criteria and in which order are they listed? It's not an exhaustive list, right? Are these Rada or Petwo iwa? Maybe add an introductory sentence stating that these are some of the most important iwa, ideally with a source that makes this selection.
  • It certainly isn't an exhaustive list as there are hundreds of lwa out there. I've basically only listed the lwa who are given attention in the main introductory academic texts on Vodou; that suggests that these are the most commonly venerated spirits in Vodou, although actually ascertaining that for sure would be very difficult (especially given the present situation in Haiti). I don't object to having an introductory sentence explaining that these are the most commonly cited lwa, but problematically I don't have a source that explicitly says that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I double checked Metraux and he does make a point about certain lwa being of major importance so I will use that to offer support for an introductory sentence on this matter. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• She is a mermaid or siren, – No connection to Greek Mythology here I assume, or is there?
  • Not that I am aware of. I think it best if I remove "siren" here because it is likely to give the impression of a Greek connection. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• More later. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, Jens. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]