Talk:Cultural nationalism

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This article was nominated for deletion on 19 November 2023. The result of the discussion was Keep.

the sources cited at Sweden Democrats establish the party as right-wing populist ethnic nationalist. dab (𒁳) 15:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's funny. One day you hear that SD is right wing and the next day left wing. They don't advocate racial nationalism though (not publicly at least) and incessantly talk about culture and "Swedishness". — EliasAlucard (Discussion · contribs) 19:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section on US Counterculture movements can be a different article. The section does not fit here. nihar (talk) 04:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Black Panther Party for Self Defense was not a culture nationalist group. They were quite the opposite, and they even had disputes with Black Nationalist organizations such as Ron Karenga's United Slaves and Elijah Muhammad's Nation of Islam. Huey P. Newton was highly critical of Culture Nationalism and even went on record referring to it as "Pork Chop Nationalism^[1]. The Panther Ideology was based mostly on a mix of Marxist ideology and some of the post-NOI ideas of Malcolm X, who was assassinated a year prior to the Black Panther Party being established in 1966 and had advocated that African Americans start their own organizations to help themselves, while cooperating with progressive White American organizations that were interested in making change. This stark difference between the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense and culture nationalist organizations is the main reason why the original Black Panther Party co-founder Bobby Seale is opposed to the group that calls itself the "New Black Panther Party," and even went so far as to sue the New Black Panther Party for using the name "Black Panther Party."

--Airmanbooker1982 (talk) 03:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A reference has been provided for the claim that Hindu nationalism has been viewed as cultural (note has been viewed as, not is commonly viewed as) which does not seem invalid. Hindutva might often be seen as ethnic nationalist, but the nature of such movements is that there are always several different analyses of their characters being put forward. If no one vehemently disagrees, I will remove the 'dubious' tag. Commissaress (talk) 13:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the tags placed on the article because subsequent edits to the article appear to have resolved the original issues. Angelbreak (talk) 22:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why was this done? The former term has currency, and is short and concise. -- GreenC 19:40, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The user who renamed the page, then attempted to change the topic of cultural nationalism to ethnic nationalism diff - all done without discussion. Restoring back to previous state. Don't do this without discussion. -- GreenC 04:43, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is a big problem with the notion of "Cultural nationalism" as distinct from other forms of nationalism. The article cites Kai Nielsen as defining cultural nationalism as neither ethnic nor civic, but this isn't explained in the narrative at all. I would also expect that to warrant its own article, the literature needs to expand way beyond one scholar. Yr Enw (talk) 20:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I note there is an article cited towards the beginning of this entry making an argument that "Cultural" nationalism should be considered something distinct from "Civic" or "Ethnic" nationalism, but no convincing argument is ever made in the entry itself for making such a distinction. In my own opinion, the article would be better merged with the respective entries for the two other categories.

2A02:C7C:5D40:9800:B12B:E526:8BAE:BE (talk) 08:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, could someone with access to the Kai Nielsen chapter cited in the lead sentence please expand upon what he says in there. It's difficult to know whether he's using Cultural nationalism as an historiographical term (like Hutchinson uses it) or positing its a distinct "type" of nationalism. If the latter, I think we can incorporate this as a brief para at the bottom of the now-existing "Definitions" section. Yr Enw (talk) 09:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find that paper online (it was originally published in journal The Philosophical Forum Volume 28 pg 48-58), but there are sources that discuss it. See for example pg. 471-472, "Civic vs Ethnic Nationalism", which places Nielsen's paper in the context of those who wish to separate ethnic and civic nationalism. But it doesn't discuss if Nielsen is trying to separate Cultural and Ethnic nationalism. There are so many books and papers that reference Nielsen's paper, it should be possible to find something. For example, this source discusses the distinction between cultural and political nationalism. -- GreenC 15:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This source has really good information eg. "There are some authors who are moving away from the ethnic/civic dichotomy .. who defend a cultural nationalism .. which can be legitimate" (pg. 30 second paragraph). -- GreenC 17:07, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following quote was removed from the article by @Reflecktor under the premise that it did not discuss cultural nationalism:

Since all nations lay claim to a unique place in history and to certain boundaries, all national identities are exclusionary. In that sense, all nations are ethnic nations [...] Brubaker elaborates on this, claiming that there are two different ways of mapping culture onto the ethnic-civic distinction. Ethnic nationalism may be interpreted narrowly, as involving an emphasis on descent. In this case, Brubaker argues, there is very little ethnic nationalism around, since on this view an emphasis on common culture has to be coded as a species of civic nationalism. If, however, ethnic nationalism is interpreted broadly, as ethnocultural, while civic nationalism is interpreted narrowly, as involving a cultural conception of citizenship, the problem is the opposite: 'civic nationalism gets defined out of existence, and virtually all nationalisms would be coded as ethnic or cultural'. Even the paradigmatic cases of civic nationalism, France and America, would cease to count as civic nationalism, since they have a crucial cultural component.

— Umut Özkırımlı, Contemporary Debates on Nationalism: A Critical Introduction, pp.24-5

I believe the quote should be reinstated, in at least some form, for the following reasons:

1. Whilst I accept "Cultural nationalism" isn't mentioned in the quote by name, this does not mean it does not discuss cultural nationalism. The Wiki entry states "Cultural nationalism" is 'nationalism in which the nation is defined by a shared culture and a common language, rather than on the concepts of common ancestry or race'.

2. Ozkirimli mentions the notion of national identity derived from/defined by culture in the excerpts I have emboldened in the above blockquote.

3. The discussion relates to how to 'map culture onto the ethnic-civic distinction', therefore problematizing the distinct label "cultural".

4. To re-emphasize, this indicates how Ozkirimli/Brubaker see "Cultural" nationalism as falling under the already existent labels of "ethnic" and "civil" because both forms have 'a crucial cultural component'.

Is this not relevant to include in the article? Especially in light of there being little critical engagement with the label "cultural nationalism" itself.

A counter-argument against my points might be that, if anything, the problem of mapping culture onto the ethnic-civic binary gives rise to a need to create a third "cultural" category. I do not find this convincing, however, because I do not think ethnic or civic nationalism are ever in reality defined as narrowly as Brubaker supposes they are. Indeed, as the quote says, all nationalisms contain a cultural component.

82.21.160.78 (talk) 15:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is all WP:OR. Reflecktor (talk) 07:11, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What makes you say this is OR when it is entirely based around a scholarly quote? Yr Enw (talk) 07:24, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They're interpreting it as relating to cultural nationalism, which isn't mentioned. Reflecktor (talk) 08:03, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• List of books that have "cultural nationalism" in the title of the book.
• List of books that have "cultural nationalism" inside the book, such as a chapter title. Excludes books if they have "cultural nationalism" in the title ie. books from the first link.

-- GreenC 15:21, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These should be quite helpful in getting this article in shape. Just re the external link I deleted that you added back, it just seemed a really random source but perhaps I’m not understanding its link Yr Enw (talk) 22:16, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In fact based on what I read in some of these other sources, I don't see the point of it, random like you say to a very particular subject, I'll remove it again. -- GreenC 22:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Revisiting Key Debates in the Study of Nationalism"

The purpose of this article is to lay out the debates and arguments around three key broader issues that dominate nationalism studies: (a) the meaning of a nation and nationalism and the relationship between political and cultural nationalism

This paper looks highly useful for this article, and highly reliable. It's also open access.

Full cite:

{{cite journal |last=Dar |first=Abdul Maajid |title=Revisiting key debates in the study of nationalism |journal=[[Humanities and Social Sciences Communications]] |volume=9 |at=Article number: 411 |date=17 November 2022 |url=https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-022-01432-w |doi=10.1057/s41599-022-01432-w}}

Dar, Abdul Maajid (17 November 2022). "Revisiting key debates in the study of nationalism". Humanities and Social Sciences Communications. 9. Article number: 411. doi:10.1057/s41599-022-01432-w.

-- GreenC 16:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]