Talk:Confucianism

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Gods[edit]

The paragraph on worship of gods (shen) is odd and needs to be rewritten. I'm not sure why worship of ancestors is tagged on the end of the paragraph, as if it is constructing a different narrative out of ancestral worship and sacrifices into the worship of gods. It simply ignores the famous Confucian saying to his disciple "respect ghosts and gods, but keep them at a distance" (敬鬼神而远之) [1] concentrating on the human world - [2] or a comment by someone in the Analects: "Master does not comment on bizzarre, the violent, the chaotic, and the spirits (子不语怪力乱神) [3], Confucian attitude to gods/spirits is more nuanced than what is made out in the paragraph. Hzh (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is because there is another religion in China Taoism

At the same time, the form of Taoism was 方仙道. They were good at witchcraft and divination, and promoted their ideas through instructions from ghosts and gods. Confucius hoped that these matters should be limited to religious rituals and not interfere with social operations.

Confucius's attitude towards ghosts and gods is positive. He is willing to discuss it because he believes in ghosts and gods. However, the importance is far less than the way people get along with each other. (Respect ghosts and gods and stay away from them) (Zi Buyu)

Religious worship corresponds to gods in heaven, gods on earth, ancestors or heroic spirits. Each status limits the objects of worship, thus flaunting the legitimacy of different class rule. Confucius valued "etiquette" and believed that society lost order because everyone could not abide by etiquette.Picnic11219 (talk) 09:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article issues and classification[edit]

This article has a multitude of issues.
  • 1)- Inline tags
    • a)-"Citation needed" (Feb 2021 and Aug 2022) The B-class criteria #1 states; The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. As maintenance I have reassessed the article.
    • b)- weasel words. Criteria #4 states; The article is reasonably well-written..
  • 2)- Lead: The rational behind why it was felt the bulk of the article needed to be presented in eight paragraphs in lead section might be interesting.
  • 3)- Citing sources: There are several areas that are lacking inline citations that include sentences, paragraphs, and subsections. A perplexing problem is material added after an inline citation. This can be seen as original research.
  • 4)- See also: A few links in this section can be beneficial but too many are a distraction.
  • 5)- "Translations of texts attributed to Confucius". There actually are no such named appendices. Possibly add some more information and use it as a subsection under "Further Reading".
  • 6)- Nine entries in the "External links" section. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.
  • ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
  • LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
  • WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

World Religions reference[edit]

I added a page number needed for the World Religions reference added by GoutComplex. This reference replaced a citation needed for the claim "In the Western world, the character for water is often used as a symbol for Confucianism". I have looked at the book and do not see that claim being made. I wanted to check with other editors who might have access to it to see if I'm missing something. Thanks. Retinalsummer (talk) 10:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I note that GoutComplex has edited the citation to suggest that because the character for water is depicted on the cover of the book in question, then this alone counts as a reliable source for the claim. This is not how referencing works, so I have removed the reference. If no reliable reference is forthcoming, I will remove the claim entirely. Retinalsummer (talk) 13:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like there are some books written in English that say water is a symbol of Confucianism - [4][5][6][7]. Not the most academically sound sources, and the idea seems a bit garbled, don't know how it got started. But this is something worth mentioning if only because there will be people who get confused when they read such information in books or other websites. However, It does need better-sourced clarification. Hzh (talk) 22:29, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2023[edit]

In the later dynasties, more emphasis was placed on the virtue of chastity. The Song dynasty Confucian Cheng Yi stated that: "To starve to death is a small matter, but to lose one's chastity is a great matter."[137] It was during the Song Dynasty that the value of chastity was so severe, Confucian scholars criminalized the remarriage of widows. Chaste widows went on to be revered and memorialized during the Ming and Qing periods.The principle of chaste widowhood was made an official institution during the Ming Dynasty. This "cult of chastity" accordingly condemned many widows to poverty and loneliness by placing a social stigma on remarriage.[135] Though the repercussions for widows at times went beyond poverty and loneliness, as for some the preservation of chastity resulted in suicide. The ideal of a chaste widow became an extremely high honor and esteem, especially for a woman who chose to end her life after her husband’s death. Many instances of such acts were recorded in, Biographies of Virtuous Women, “a collection of stories of women who distinguished themselves by committing suicide after their husband’s deaths to guard their chastity and purity”. Though it can be contested whether all these instances can be deemed self-sacrificing for the virtue of chastity, as it became common practice for women to be forced to commit suicide after their husband’s death. This resulted from the honor which chaste widowhood garnered, lending itself to the husband's family as well as his clan or village.


[1] Account13 (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Women Existing For Men: Confucianism and Social Injustice against Women in China (Xiongya Gao)
User:Account13, you've already edited the article directly. This edit request is no longer necessary. Discussion about the material in question can take place here or follow the usual WP:BRD cycle. Folly Mox (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023[edit]

Change `It's` -> `Its` in `It's literal meaning in modern Chinese is "scholar", "learned", or "refined man"` Inlieuofleu (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Loafiewa (talk) 13:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion in paragraph 4[edit]

The first sentence of the fourth paragraph reads:

"In religious Confucianism, liturgy (called 儒; rú, or sometimes 正统; 正統; zhèngtǒng, meaning 'orthopraxy') led by Confucian priests or "sages of rites" (礼生; 禮生; lǐshēng) to worship the gods in public and ancestral Chinese temples is preferred on certain occasions, by Confucian religious groups and for civil religious rites, over Taoist or popular ritual."

This sentence does not make any sense whatsoever. I don't even know what it is supposed to mean to edit it and make it make sense. If someone could try and decipher this and make it better, that would be good.

FA Myn J (talk) 02:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:FA Myn J, that material appears in a more understandable phrasing in the section § Organisation and liturgy, where it is given as Chinese folk religious temples and kinship ancestral shrines may, on peculiar occasions, choose Confucian liturgy (called 儒; rú or 正統 (zhèngtǒng; 'orthopraxy') led by Confucian ritual masters (禮生; lǐshēng) to worship the gods, instead of Taoist or popular ritual. Although it's still all mixed up, you can kind of get a feel for its intended meaning. The prior wording seemed to be implying that Religious Confucianists sometimes prefer Religious Confucianist rituals over rituals from other traditions, which seems believable.
Anyway I removed the bit from paragraph four in the lead, where it is an unnecessary detail and also doesn't make sense. Thanks for bringing this up. I low key hate this article and it's been on my todo list forever, but I don't know that I'll ever have the patience to read through sufficient materials about Confucianism to rewrite it. Folly Mox (talk) 03:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I didn't see that later in the article I guess. I genuinely read that sentence 15 times trying to figure out what it meant, so thank you for the help. FA Myn J (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Minor typo[edit]

Under the section on widows, the start of one sentence is not capitalized. 24.16.99.54 (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Confucianism and other schools of thought" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect Confucianism and other schools of thought has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 31 § Confucianism and other schools of thought until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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