Talk:Ayyavazhi mythology

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I love it! Sam Spade 01:04, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The more I read it the better it gets, what an excellent job! Sam Spade 01:55, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excellent Job. Only thing is that it is a sect in hinduism. Not a seperate religion. For more information check the census on religion in India. Even references to 'Sri Rangam' and 'Thiruvananthapuram' looks associated to Hinduism. These temples are Vaishnavite. Being a vaishnavvite, I think it is one of the local offshoots to Hinduism.

Ayya Vazhi can be distict from Hinduism as Mormonism is with Christianity although there's nothing objectionable or controversial about them. ( as many Christians do with Mormonism) At the same time, they can be considered part of Hinduism. For example, in addition to Puranas and Ramayana, etc, they recognize an additional scripture, Akilattirattu Ammanai. Key differences include the concept of a Satan-like figure, Kroni. However, like smartism, and advaita, they believe that Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva are different aspects of the same God.

Vaikunda Raja, who has been writing all the articles of ayya vazhi, is writing the article on Ayyavazhi and Hinduism. When he's finished, he will let me know.

Raj2004 18:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification[edit]

It is probably a good idea to make a short introduction paragraph with an overview of what Ayyavazhi is all about - and what relationship, if any, it has with Sanatana Dharma a.k.a. Hinduism. I guess there will be a variety of opinions on this last point. If so, it is probably best to represent them all. Luis Dantas

Ayya Vazhi can be distict from Hinduism as Mormonism is with Christianity although there's nothing objectionable or controversial about them. At the same time, they can be considered part of Hinduism. For example, in addition to Puranas and Ramayana, etc, they recognize an additional scripture, Akilattirattu Ammanai. Key differences include the concept of a Satan-like figure, Kroni. sort of like the book of mormon in addition to the Bible. They also reject the use of Sanskrit in Hindu rites and focus on vernacualar languages.

However, like smartism, and advaita, they believe that Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva are different aspects of the same God. Like smartism, they stress the formless aspect of God, Nirguna Brahman.

However, followers of Ayyavazhi differ from other Hindus in that they recognise a Satan-like figure, Kroni, who is the primordial manifestation of evil and manifests in various forms, for example, Ravana and Duryodhana, in different ages or yugas. In response to such manifestations of evil, God as Vishnu incarnates in his avatars, Rama, Krishna, etc., to destroy the evil. Hindus believe the Kali Yuga is degraded by the spirit of the age but Ayya Vazhi age goes more explicitly in pointing out a satan-like figure.

Raj2004 17:52, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Links should only included when there's a relevant article, or is likely to be one. They shouldn't be made to redirects; when the article to which the user is redirected is alrady linked to in the article, no link is needed at all. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Much of the information in this article is duplicated in another article entitled Ayyavazhi. I recommend moving any relevant information from that article to this one, then delete that one.--Steven McCrary 13:57, 07/13/05 (UTC).

No. I don't agree. we need a separate article, ayya vazhi to describe the religion and separate article on mythology. It would be like putting the Ramayana and Hinduism together in one article. Religious texts and stories should be separate from the religion article.

Raj2004 17:51, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Raj is correct, there should not be a merger. If anything the two articles should contain more duplicate information (for purposes of context), not less. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 19:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, let's discuss it. While we are, could no-one unilaterally remove the notice, which merely makes the suggestion and invited discussion?

My own view is that the merger wouldn't work; the two articles shouldn't overlap greatly (that's why we have links between them), but they cover sufficiently different topics to be separate. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agreed with Raj2004 and removed the merge, if that is OK. If not, I can put it back, with apology. Steven McCrary 13:42, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

There is no need, no one is advocating the merger, and thus retaining the header for a discussion we all agree on is... unnecessary. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 14:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So long as the person who placed it is happy, I have no objection. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Steve, you are probably right. That's good suggestion. I didn't know ayya vazhi either until recently. perhaps it should have a suffix, such as Ayyavazhi Faith. I didn't know about Bahai until I attended college. so perhaps adding the word faith would help and then create redirects for people who are familiar with ayyavazhi. If you type in Bahai, it redirects to Bahai faith.

Let's see what Sam and Mel think.

Raj2004 13:51, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I would have to hear from Vaikunda Raja before I could form an opinion. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 15:57, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sam is absolutely right. We should really ask Vaikunda Raja. He is the one who has created all these wonderful and interesting articles.

Raj2004 23:03, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Steven McCrary retrieved the following message from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Stevenwmccrary58": "Welcome, you were in the discussion page of Ayyavazhi and questioned, is Ayyavazhi a single word or two. Ayyavazhi is the combination of two words Ayya(Father)+ Vazhi(Pathway) which means 'The pathway of Father' ('Father' represents God). And you suggests to rename the article. On my vision it seems not a right thing, because that religious phenomenon was identified with that exact name in South India. Kindly consider my suggestion which says 'no' for renaming it. Also you are welcomed for further suggestion related to that topic. -Vaikunda Raja" 18:31 14 July 2005 (UTC) Steven McCrary 00:50, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Steve, then we must respect Vaikunda's suggestion. Raj2004 00:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to drop if others find it understandable. Steven McCrary 01:44, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I of course strongly support Vaikunda in this matter. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 01:49, 15 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is the reference to the Mayan people of Mexico a mistake here? Steven McCrary 17:28, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I have copy-editted the Ayya Vaikundar page after adding the information from the old Vaikundar Avitaram. I have taken it as far as I can. Some of the information on Ayyavahi mythology may be better suited on that page. Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated. Take it away, if needed. Thanks. Steven McCrary 19:35, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm concerned that the multiple different names used for individual Ayyavazhi divinities will make this wonderful article more confusing than is necessary for people unfamiliar with the topic. I started to try and rectify this, but then stopped. I figure I should throw this out for feedback from the other people working on this article, most particularly Raj. My suggestion is this: instead of interchangeably using "Lord Narayana", "Mayon" and "Vishnu," and doing the same with "Shiva," "Sivan" and "Isvaran," how about sticking to just the Tamil name of each one? In other words, in Ayyavazhi articles why don't we just call them "Mayon" and "Sivan," respectively, since Ayyavazhi appears to be a predominantly Tamil faith? Perhaps at the first usage of those names in each article we can identify that these are the Tamil synonyms for Shiva, Vishnu, Isvaran, Narayan, etc. But after that stick to the Tamil name.

Obviously, avatars would retain their own name.

Does that make sense to the rest of you, and to you, Raj? Could the same formula be applied to other proper nouns, e.g. the name of Sivan's abode? Babajobu 14:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No response yet...well, I've changed all the instances of "yukam" or "yukams" in the "first six yukams" section to "yuga" and "yugas". I didn this because "yuga" is the transliteration used for other Hinduism articles, and seems to be closer to the Tamil pronunciation. Again, I'm just trying to create--as much as possible--consistent use of names and words. If, for any reason, yukam is in fact the preferable transliteration in articles related to Ayyavazhi, then I of course accept that it will be reverted back. Thanks, and still interested in any comments. Babajobu 14:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Babajobu, what you have done with yuga/yukam is perfectly okay. The sanskrit word yuga is pronounced yugam in Tamil. The problem with pronounciation arises because there is no seperate letters for ka and ga in Tamil. Hence some Tamil speakers prefer to call it 'yukam', though most tamilians pronouce 'yugam'. So, 'yukam' here is same as the sanskrit 'yuga' except that the duration cycles are a little different here. And with reference to names, the deities that come up in Ayyavazhi are same as those in Hinduism, except that they are treated a little differently in Ayyavazhi mythology. Siva/Shiva is the same as Sivan, and this rule applies to all cases -- adding a suffix an after sanskrit names in order to tamilise it. Ideally Sivan should redirect to Shiva,.. and a note may be added in the Shiva page that Shiva is such and such in Ayyavazhi mythology. - Srini81 15:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Srini81, that is extremely helpful, and I'm glad that the yukam-to-yuga changes were appropriate. Can I ask you where the name "Mayon", for Vishnu, comes from? Is "Mayon" predominantly used by Tamil-speakers? Thank you again very much for your comments. Babajobu 17:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, first, there are an awful lot of instances of "yukam" ledt in this and many other articles — you've taken on a big job. But, secondly, if Ayyavazhi uses Tamil rather than Sanskrit terms, shouldn't we stick with those? After all, in Buddhist articles we don't translate Pali terms into Sanskrit. Even given what Srini81, says, the fact that the Ayyavazhi system of yukams is different from the Hindu system of yugas would be kept clearer if a slightly different term were used in each case. The internal links could be to the same article, Yuga#Yukam, with details of the Ayyavazhi notion given there. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mel, yes, when I changed Shiva to Sivan I was trying to go with the Tamil usage. Perhaps the same should go for yukam. I didn't realize it was the Tamil usage, because Raj said that Tamils pronounce "yukam" as "yugam", which led me to think the "yukam" transliteration was non-Tamil. But now Srini has clarified that the yukam/yugam thing is a result of a single letter in Tamil for both voiced ("g") and unvoiced ("k") velar fricatives. So I don't know where that leaves us. Maybe yukam really is better. I think Srini was just saying that either is fine. Babajobu 17:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, certain things needs to be put in perspective here. Though Ayyavazhi is a significant and growing faith in southern parts of Tamil Nadu, very small percentage of the total number Tamilians follow the faith. For Tamil Hindus (the majority among Tamilians), the word yugam/yukam always refers to yuga in Sanskrit and the four 'yugams' are same as the four 'yugas' of Hinduism. Hence it would not be proper to identify the word yugam/yukam exclusively with Ayyavazhi. As for the choice of words in the article, I would suggest the use of word yugam or yuga, given the fact that proper pronounciation of the word in Tamil is yugam, though the use of the word yukam would not be a big issue. I suggest that the names Sivan and Mayon be retained, and just a mention at the beginning of the article that 'Sivan is Shiva' should be fine. - Srini81 08:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The article can easily be worded so as to head off the fallacious inference from "Ayyavazhi uses 'yukam'" to "'yukam' is only used in Ayyavazhi". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to be on Wikipedia for a while, so unfortunately I'm forced to leave the article split between "yuga" and "yukam". Apologies for that. Babajobu 08:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ithu en life la nadantha sila good memories pa….

My family is having one own temple pa... Ayya NarayanaSwamy temple. It is there for 6 generations.

      Initially i wont worship god pa.  

 In my 10th std i saw the god Ramar with sita in my dreams. I really wondered in my life and I started worshiping the god. Actually I am not good in studies that time.  Since it is secondary school it is very important period to me. i got 250-300 in all my Revison exams. I prayed to god to secure 400 in my 10th std. The result I wondered that i got exactly 400 marks. ok then i thought it may be of luck.

 Later in my 12th std . My studies also not good that time I asked 900 marks before exam. But I have not studied properly I got chicken box so I asked my god before the result I have to get just less than 850 exactly I got 842 marks and too family members wondered that with chicken box I went and wrote one exam i.e., computer paper even without preparation I got 189 out of 200 marks.  So my father put in Bsc comp sci. in college I started studying I prayed to my god to get 80% after I finish my degree. Initially in semester 1 I got 67%.I fighted with my friend Paul who is good in studies. First semester we had fight we had open competition to chase him. I worked hard but he worked more than me. Upto 4 semester I tried to chase him. At 5th semester again he mocked me that u can chase at 6th like he is leaving a chance. I prayed to my god and I prayed to my diyanam in “thuriyam” to chase him that I have to win him this semester itself and not in next semester. I win him by securing that semester 84%. This was a big achievement at that time for me. When I finish my exam I got 80% exactly. All my friends Stuggle to get a merit seat MCA degree. I targeted only one college and prayed exactly I want to study in that college only. I got it. I once again prayed to my god to get 80% and class first. Initially I am not the class first. While finishing the degree I got same 80% and class first. Actually I have not put much effort to study.

Wait.. Interesting things are there…..  I always before going to exam even I have not studied well for the exam I worship my god and I will write the exam. In post graduate MCA i.e. 6 semesters was there. In the 6 semester when I got the hall ticket for each semester and I came out of my college in the Auto the word "AYYA THUNAI" word will be there. I have not missed that for 6 semesters. (yes) and too for every exam I used to see the word "ayya thunai" word in auto or some how I used to see the word. One interesting thing is before exam 3 months before the exam even if I tried also I can’t see the word ayya thunai word. I tried also. So in all the exams before I go to the exam I used to see the word and wrote well in my exam. and another interesting thing is I used to check my result in the college right that day around 4 semester when I saw the result and come out I will be very happy and at the front of the door of my college/in browsing center I saw the word "ayya thunai" word. I admired so many times about this I am so innocent those periods.

Ok. My father is a judge so what ever I asked he will buy for me. When my father is about to retired and too it is of my final year. I started prepare for campus interview. I prayed to my god but I am not able to see my god (i.e. the word) I cried and wept no improvement. 4 companies I got rejected because of aptitude test.  At the 5th company interview I saw my god and I got selected in that campus interview. So I thought life I got settled and I went to the company. Situation seems to be very tough in my family a tight financial position. Father got retired and brother not earing much. It is like a burden I have to save my family. I worked well only, but lot of politics in the company I faced. That time year 2001 total IT gone down. They said they can not give confirmation to my job. That day I cried and I doknow that my father is having lot of assert like that. i went to attempt a suicide by asking sleeping tablet in the medical shop they told that they cannot give and i stand near by bustop and I cried in the bus stop and when I use my handkerchief to rub my tears. Suddenly I saw the god very near to me. So close to me. Ayya Thunai word.  I stunned but I got angry with my god not giving me job. So after that I have not any good job for 3 months. I worried and I went to software Technoly Park to give all my resumes to around 30 companies and I asked my god that if god is there that day u came right while i lost the job. can u come at this remote place. Like that as if I do not believe the god. Seriously I asked. it is a wonder next second I saw my god very near to me "the same ayya thunai" word. One thing that "Ayya NarayanaSwamy is a god who is famous in Nagerkovil" in Chennai very few only worship my god. it is very rare to see the word.

 Then I worked in that small company for a year. I keep on scold and fight with my god. After that I got seat in MTech. When I got the admission I saw Ramar again in my dreams a long gap after my 10th. And in MTech also I prayed a good percentage and class first, university first. i got 87% and class first and university first. In this MTech degree. There also the whole semester I have not seen my god but only at the time of getting hall ticket I used to see my god. Then I completed my degree I got job in a company while getting a job also I saw the god 'ayya thunai' word.

 After 3 months I lost my job and I see my god when I came out of the company with worries and I got job immediately after 2 days and when I got appointment in next company when I came out I saw the god.  I just wondered. in Chennai it is not easy to get a job. After that I seen my god lot of times. So after that I went to Nagerkovil and prayed me that please get me an overseas job in ‘tiruvila’ not having the hope that I will get it. Just I asked...

When I came to Chennai within 1 month I got the job in Malaysia. But I went to temple my god was not happy because he don’t want me to go to Malaysia. pa

After I came from Malaysia i.e. after 7 months. I want to change my job so I prayed to my god. The next day I got interview in Ramco systems. Till that time I have not seen my god. I saw my god near by Ramco systems. I got selected. After that I went to rameshwaram to do some prayer to lord Ramar. But I got only chance to do some prayer to the lord Shiva god. Priest asks me to put the asta in the sea and dip around 35 times. After 20 th dip I saw lord shiva and parvathi inside the sea. I stunned for a while and I saw continuously until i complete my 35 dip. After that I came here to join in ramco systems. i had 10 days break i have not seen my lord ayya narayanar. The joining dates of ramco ...near my house I saw my god. Till date it is going well pa..

I saw so many times my god. But while joining to Wipro I have not seen my God. I had some problem in Wipro after I joined. I saw my god at wipro gate office one time in chennai. After that client interview was there. That day I have not seen my god. I worried a lot but he come at night at velachery at night 9.00 pm near to my house.

		After I joined in Wipro Technologies so many times I went to Chennai. Initially one or two weeks my  

God came to see me then After that he has not came to see me when ever I go to Chennai. I planned to do PHD so often I went to Chennai to seek professor. I am not able to get good guide and too I am not able to see my god in Chennai. I thought god is very much anger in me or he forgots me. After some 8 months I got offer in HP initially that week I expected my god but I am able to see only the flower lotus not the word ayya thunai. Again I came to banglore and I dropped my hp offer. After that my mind got changed and I accepted my offer, that week I went to Chennai that week I saw my god around 4 times. I saw so surprised to see my god.

send email to srimtech@yahoo.co.in (sridhar)

Since this appears to be a set of scriptures that are sacred to millions of people who believe in them, I am wondering if the phrase "Ayyavazhi mythology" is not expressive of a point-of-view that perhaps is not shared by the significant numbers who consider them true. This is a living world religion pratised today, not a "mythology". As for the category of this naem, it seems there are already plenty of other categories for Ayyavazhi religion to make a mythology category unnecessary. I have opened a discussion on this at:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#List_of_articles_where_mythology_cats_are_potentially_problematic

Regards, Blockinblox 14:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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